Crash Rule

LIBLUE · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 01, 2002, 02:25pm

When enforcing the crash rule which states ejection of the runner I would think emotions run rather high .My question is how do you deal with the defensive coach who now wants blood and the offensive coach who saying "that's just hard nosed ball

Just Curious · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 01, 2002, 03:13pm

Quote:

Originally posted by LIBLUE
When enforcing the crash rule which states ejection of the runner I would think emotions run rather high .My question is how do you deal with the defensive coach who now wants blood and the offensive coach who saying "that's just hard nosed ball

Send him to Houchins????? (It's a blood bank

)

Dakota · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 01, 2002, 03:43pm

Quote:

Originally posted by LIBLUE
When enforcing the crash rule which states ejection of the runner I would think emotions run rather high .My question is how do you deal with the defensive coach who now wants blood and the offensive coach who saying "that's just hard nosed ball

To eject, you would have to rule the act was flagrant.

OK, now that you have made that determination, forget about the theatrics - you know, the spin, point to the sky stuff you see on TV - that has no place in youth sports, or even adult amateur sports.

Assuming there was no injury, just calmly declare a DEAD BALL, call the runner OUT for interference, send any other runners back to the appropriate bases, and walk over to the offensive coach while getting out your lineup card. Say to him quietly, "Coach, can I have a substitute for #11, because I am ejecting her for flagrant contact."

Deal with the other bench just like any other substitution - go calmly to their scorekeeper and inform them of the change.

No need to further inflame the situation or embarass the player.

IRISHMAFIA · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 01, 2002, 05:29pm

Quote:

[i]

To eject, you would have to rule the act was flagrant.

OK, now that you have made that determination, forget about the theatrics - you know, the spin, point to the sky stuff you see on TV - that has no place in youth sports, or even adult amateur sports.

Assuming there was no injury, just calmly declare a DEAD BALL, call the runner OUT for interference, send any other runners back to the appropriate bases, and walk over to the offensive coach while getting out your lineup card. Say to him quietly, "Coach, can I have a substitute for #11, because I am ejecting her for flagrant contact."

Deal with the other bench just like any other substitution - go calmly to their scorekeeper and inform them of the change.

No need to further inflame the situation or embarass the player. [/B]

Very well put, Dakota. The only problem I have with this stuff, not your explanation, is the term flagrant. What may be flagrant to me, may not be flagrant to you. To me, if a runner intentionally runs over or through another player, that is flagrant.

If I notice an act, motion or any indication that the runner is attempting to check-up or avoid the defender, the runner will receive the benefit of the doubt should any remain.

I think what many people don't catch onto is that unless the fielder is actually making a play on the runner, you do not call the runner out for crashing into a fielder.

Gulf Coast Blue · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 01, 2002, 09:08pm

I was once asked by a rookie umpire when to rule malicious contact..........

My reply was.........."You will know it when you see it".....

Dakota and Mike are right on here.......

Not everyone has the luxury of watching thousands of games as either a spectator/coach/umpire..........BUT.......most can pick up on a play where the runner intended to injure the fielder.....

Joel

greymule · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 02, 2002, 05:40pm

The crash rule will simply never stop being a problem. I wish it didn't exist. I think there were fewer injuries when the catcher was aware that he could be crashed.

A couple of years ago, I had this "crash" play in SP: R1 on 1B, B1 hit ball off fence. R1 tried to score but the throw beat him. R1, who weighed about 130, remained on his feet and crashed into F2, who weighed about 260 and probably bench pressed a lot more than that. R1 bounced off F2, who then threw to 3B to nail B1 for a double play. I'm not sure F2 was even aware that R1 had crashed him.

Nobody on either team said anything, but a few minutes later it dawned on me that a crash had occurred. So I went over and warned R1. But then I began to wonder what the correct call should have been. Out for interference on the crash and B1 out as the runner closest to home? Except R1 wasn't out until he crashed. Out for the crash and B1 goes back to 2B? No, can't penalize the defense when the offense breaks the rules. And what if F2 threw the ball away and B1 scored?

I also had practically the opposite situation, one that ended up with several players suspended by the league. I was filling in for another ump in a league I don't normally work. (Engraved invitation for problems.) The entire game was quiet until a runner tried to score the winning run in the bottom of the 7th. The throw skipped by the catcher, who in trying to block the throw had fallen to his knees in the back of the rh batter's box, and the runner ran in front of him to score standing up. Game over, but suddenly a screaming mob was in my face claiming that I should have called the runner out "for not sliding." I tried to explain that not only was the ball back at the screen, but there was no crash--not even any contact. Threats, obscenities, thrown equipment, and so on.

It seems that earlier in the year that team had had runners called out not for crashing but simply for not sliding on close plays, whatever "close" means.

Steve M · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 02, 2002, 06:19pm

Every now & then I get sucked into one of those slow pitch beer league games. It's always amazing how much I learn at them - see the players know all the rules inside & out while I don't have a clue.

As far as your "CRASH" rule goes - when you call a player out, it's actually for interference. So you have a deadball and all other runners return to the last base they had. In your example, Greymule, R1 is out (ejected if you think it was flagrant) and B1 is on 2B (assuming he had 2nd before the flea, I mean R1, hit F2). If your opinion is that R1 knew he was gonna be dead at home and crashed deliberately trying to prevent a double play, then you also get B1 out.

bluezebra · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 02, 2002, 08:41pm

I thought the word was "malicious", not "flagrant".

Bob

Steve M · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 02, 2002, 09:36pm

Bob,
Yes, the word is really malicious. Flagrant was just the word I used.

IRISHMAFIA · #10 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 03, 2002, 02:05pm

No, the term is "flagrant", in rule 8.8.Q and POE #13. The term malicious was removed a few years ago as some umpires thought to be malicious, the crash needed to be with the intention of injuring the player.

Steve M · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 03, 2002, 05:11pm

That's a difference in wording that I hadn't noticed. As I understand it, the intent and effect are the same. Maybe it was from ASA that I picked up using the word 'flagrant'.

Elaine "Lady Blue" · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 04, 2002, 12:16pm

To-may-toe, To-mah-toe.

IRISHMAFIA · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 04, 2002, 01:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Elaine "Lady Blue"
To-may-toe, To-mah-toe.

C'mon, Elaine.

You know damn well in Georgia they just call'em maters!

Elaine "Lady Blue" · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 04, 2002, 01:50pm

Excuse me, I am an Atlanta native, not a Georgia native, and there is a BIG difference. We in Atlanta say to-may-toe, thank you. Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, some parts of the Carolinas, for sure Tennessee and Kentucky say
'maters!!

IRISHMAFIA · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 04, 2002, 01:59pm

That's right, Elaine. I forgot that Georgia is in the South and everything inside I285 belongs to the North