Retouch

[Jake]

Less than 2 outs R1 at 1st. A line drive to an infielder that is caught who fires to 1st to try to double up the runner. The throw goes out of play. Does the runner have to retouch first or can he be called out on an appeal after his base award?


Thanks

Mike

[UmpJM]

Jake,

The runner must still retouch 1B or he will be liable to a properly constituted appeal.

JM

[Ump Rube]

Any time a runner fails to touch-up, they are liable to be put out on appeal. Now in regards to a ball going into DBT. I thought I remember something about runners being unable to retouch after the ball is dead, but I think that might only pertain to runners that have scored. I will defer to those of you who have access to your rulebook to correct me.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Ump Rube

Any time a runner fails to touch-up, they are liable to be put out on appeal. Now in regards to a ball going into DBT. I thought I remember something about runners being unable to retouch after the ball is dead, but I think that might only pertain to runners that have scored. I will defer to those of you who have access to your rulebook to correct me.

OBR: The runner can correct the error ("leaving early") until such time as he touches the next base *after* the ball has become dead.

FED: The runner can correct the error unless he is on or beyuond the next base *when* (at the time that) the ball becomes dead.

[Jake]

Thanks.

Thats the info I needed

Mike

[johnnyg08]

FED: Just to clarify...if there is a deep fly ball to left field or whereever, R1 runs and touches 2B, F7 makes a great catch, R1 retreats back to 1B, R1 can be put out on appeal?

[johnnyg08]

It appears as though it's only on a dead ball situation...it seems like on a live ball sitch, this should be legal though...

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Ump Rube

Any time a runner fails to touch-up, they are liable to be put out on appeal. Now in regards to a ball going into DBT. I thought I remember something about runners being unable to retouch after the ball is dead, but I think that might only pertain to runners that have scored. I will defer to those of you who have access to your rulebook to correct me.

Rube, page 48 of the FED book (8-2-ART3) states that: Any runner who misses a base while advancing may not return to touch it after a following runner has scored.

For the answer to my own question and the answer to anybody else out there who cares w/ regard to FED states: (8-2-ART 5) If a runner who misses any base (including home plate) or leaves a base too early, desires to return to touch the base, he must do so immediately. If the ball becomes dead and the runner is on or beyond a succeeding base, he cannot return to the missed base and, therefore, is subject to being declared out upon proper and successful appeal.

NOTE: When a play by its very nature is imminent and is obvious to the offense, defense, and umpire(s), no verbal appeal is necessary, e.g. runner attempting to retouch a base that was missed, or a failure to tag up and a throw has been made to that base or plate while a play is in progress

8-2-ART 6(d) states: that a runner MAY NOT RETURN to touch a missed base or one left too soon on a caught fly ball if:

1. he has reached a base beyond the base missed or left too soon and the ball becomes dead,
2. he has left the field of play, or
3. a following runner has scored.

[Bishopcolle]

Johnnyg08 says "8-2-ART 6(d) states: that a runner MAY NOT RETURN to touch a missed base or one left too soon on a caught fly ball if:

1. he has reached a base beyond the base missed or left too soon and the ball becomes dead,
2. he has left the field of play, or
3. a following runner has scored."

What is our mechanic when R1 is attempting to steal second base, the pitched ball is nailed to deep left who makes the catch...R1 had attained second base, sees the catch and reverts to first base when the ball goes dead on an overthrow to F3? He MAY NOT RETURN on this play, correct? But he IS returning, so what do we do? What mechanic(s) is correct here?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

Johnnyg08 says "8-2-ART 6(d) states: that a runner MAY NOT RETURN to touch a missed base or one left too soon on a caught fly ball if:

1. he has reached a base beyond the base missed or left too soon and the ball becomes dead,
2. he has left the field of play, or
3. a following runner has scored."

What is our mechanic when R1 is attempting to steal second base, the pitched ball is nailed to deep left who makes the catch...R1 had attained second base, sees the catch and reverts to first base when the ball goes dead on an overthrow to F3? He MAY NOT RETURN on this play, correct? But he IS returning, so what do we do? What mechanic(s) is correct here?

1) Assuming we're talking about FED rules, it's not clear from your description ("R1 reverts to first when the ball goes dead") whether R1 may return. If, at the time the ball entered DBT, R1 was still on or beyond second, then you are correct -- R1 may not legally return (see 2a, below). If, at the time the ball entered DBT, R1 was between first and second, R1 may return (see 2b below).

2a) (R1 not allowed to legally return) It's not covered, afaik, in the FED mechanics manual. I would just treat it as any other ball out of play -- "Time. You -- third base." Then watch and see what happens. Even if R1 returns to first, then touches second and advances to third, the defense is allowed to appeal at first. If they do so correctly (and since the ball is dead it won't take much to make a correct appeal), call R1 out.

2b) (R1 allowed to legally return) Treat it as any ball out of play -- "Time. You -- third base." Then watch and see what happens. If R1 touches frist, then second, then third, he has fulfilled his base running responsibilities (on this play) and no appeal will be upheld. If he, for example, turns right around and touches second and then third (without "retouching" first), rule on any appeal.

3) If the rules code is NCAA or OBR, then R1 is allowed to return to first no matter where he is when (at the time that) the ball becomes dead. It's only his actions AFTER the ball becomes dead that might place a restriction on his return.

[Ump Rube]

Bob...

1. Would that require R1 to "untouch," during live ball action, 2B on his way back to be considered between 1B and 2B?
2. Or is simply being in between them enough?
3. If he does not untouch, is he then liable to be putout on an appeal of 2B?
4. Or would it be 1B because he is technically not between 1B and 2B, but really 2B and 3B so tagging up 1B is not legal? (assuming 2 is not enough)

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

2a) (R1 not allowed to legally return) It's not covered, afaik, in the FED mechanics manual. I would just treat it as any other ball out of play -- "Time. You -- third base." Then watch and see what happens. Even if R1 returns to first, then touches second and advances to third, the defense is allowed to appeal at first. If they do so correctly (and since the ball is dead it won't take much to make a correct appeal), call R1 out.
.

Bob: Thanks for the input...yeah, I can see if it's dead when he is in between bases, then he can return....I don't understand in the above quote why he can be appealed out, if he gets back to the bag, and then properly touches in the correct order....Thanks ahead of time for your explanation...Mike

[johnnyg08]

remember, I think they're talking about dead ball appeals. i too, don't really understand the reasoning behind it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

Bob: Thanks for the input...yeah, I can see if it's dead when he is in between bases, then he can return....I don't understand in the above quote why he can be appealed out, if he gets back to the bag, and then properly touches in the correct order....Thanks ahead of time for your explanation...Mike

Because, in FED, he's not allowed to legally return. His retouch of first means nothing.

Let's take an extreme example -- BR hit a homerun, but misses first. He realizes it just after he touches home. He then retouches home, third, second, first, second, third and home. Are you going to deny the appeal at first?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Ump Rube

Bob...

1. Would that require R1 to "untouch," during live ball action, 2B on his way back to be considered between 1B and 2B?
2. Or is simply being in between them enough?
3. If he does not untouch, is he then liable to be putout on an appeal of 2B?
4. Or would it be 1B because he is technically not between 1B and 2B, but really 2B and 3B so tagging up 1B is not legal? (assuming 2 is not enough)

1) He must pass by (and we hope he touches) second on his way to first.

2) If he misses second, but then the ball goes OOP and he then retouches first and then second on the way to third, there are no appeals in NCAA and OBR based on the "last-time-by" concept. FED does not address this issue, but I would treat it the same way (which likely means that FED will come out with a different ruling. )