Retouch

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

Johnnyg08 says "8-2-ART 6(d) states: that a runner MAY NOT RETURN to touch a missed base or one left too soon on a caught fly ball if:

1. he has reached a base beyond the base missed or left too soon and the ball becomes dead,
2. he has left the field of play, or
3. a following runner has scored."

What is our mechanic when R1 is attempting to steal second base, the pitched ball is nailed to deep left who makes the catch...R1 had attained second base, sees the catch and reverts to first base when the ball goes dead on an overthrow to F3? He MAY NOT RETURN on this play, correct? But he IS returning, so what do we do? What mechanic(s) is correct here?

1) Assuming we're talking about FED rules, it's not clear from your description ("R1 reverts to first when the ball goes dead") whether R1 may return. If, at the time the ball entered DBT, R1 was still on or beyond second, then you are correct -- R1 may not legally return (see 2a, below). If, at the time the ball entered DBT, R1 was between first and second, R1 may return (see 2b below).

2a) (R1 not allowed to legally return) It's not covered, afaik, in the FED mechanics manual. I would just treat it as any other ball out of play -- "Time. You -- third base." Then watch and see what happens. Even if R1 returns to first, then touches second and advances to third, the defense is allowed to appeal at first. If they do so correctly (and since the ball is dead it won't take much to make a correct appeal), call R1 out.

2b) (R1 allowed to legally return) Treat it as any ball out of play -- "Time. You -- third base." Then watch and see what happens. If R1 touches frist, then second, then third, he has fulfilled his base running responsibilities (on this play) and no appeal will be upheld. If he, for example, turns right around and touches second and then third (without "retouching" first), rule on any appeal.

3) If the rules code is NCAA or OBR, then R1 is allowed to return to first no matter where he is when (at the time that) the ball becomes dead. It's only his actions AFTER the ball becomes dead that might place a restriction on his return.

[Ump Rube]

Bob...

1. Would that require R1 to "untouch," during live ball action, 2B on his way back to be considered between 1B and 2B?
2. Or is simply being in between them enough?
3. If he does not untouch, is he then liable to be putout on an appeal of 2B?
4. Or would it be 1B because he is technically not between 1B and 2B, but really 2B and 3B so tagging up 1B is not legal? (assuming 2 is not enough)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Ump Rube

Bob...

1. Would that require R1 to "untouch," during live ball action, 2B on his way back to be considered between 1B and 2B?
2. Or is simply being in between them enough?
3. If he does not untouch, is he then liable to be putout on an appeal of 2B?
4. Or would it be 1B because he is technically not between 1B and 2B, but really 2B and 3B so tagging up 1B is not legal? (assuming 2 is not enough)

1) He must pass by (and we hope he touches) second on his way to first.

2) If he misses second, but then the ball goes OOP and he then retouches first and then second on the way to third, there are no appeals in NCAA and OBR based on the "last-time-by" concept. FED does not address this issue, but I would treat it the same way (which likely means that FED will come out with a different ruling. )

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

2a) (R1 not allowed to legally return) It's not covered, afaik, in the FED mechanics manual. I would just treat it as any other ball out of play -- "Time. You -- third base." Then watch and see what happens. Even if R1 returns to first, then touches second and advances to third, the defense is allowed to appeal at first. If they do so correctly (and since the ball is dead it won't take much to make a correct appeal), call R1 out.
.

Bob: Thanks for the input...yeah, I can see if it's dead when he is in between bases, then he can return....I don't understand in the above quote why he can be appealed out, if he gets back to the bag, and then properly touches in the correct order....Thanks ahead of time for your explanation...Mike

[johnnyg08]

remember, I think they're talking about dead ball appeals. i too, don't really understand the reasoning behind it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

Bob: Thanks for the input...yeah, I can see if it's dead when he is in between bases, then he can return....I don't understand in the above quote why he can be appealed out, if he gets back to the bag, and then properly touches in the correct order....Thanks ahead of time for your explanation...Mike

Because, in FED, he's not allowed to legally return. His retouch of first means nothing.

Let's take an extreme example -- BR hit a homerun, but misses first. He realizes it just after he touches home. He then retouches home, third, second, first, second, third and home. Are you going to deny the appeal at first?

[johnnyg08]

I get that he can't do it...I'm just curious as to why he can't.

How would you rule on the example you provided. I guess if it's FED, you allow the appeal, call him out and take away the run since he's already touched all of the other bases.