Clapping by Base Runners

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by aschramm

Last night I was BU for a U14 game (FED Rules), and near the middle of the game the runners for the team at-bat started clapping, not in uniform, in an attempt to distract the pitcher during his preliminary motions, and hoping the pitcher would balk.
Thanks!

Gentlemen, based upon the description of this alone, this is a rules violation.

I agree with Ozzy that some officials "like to make up rules and adjust rules to fit situations," however, there are many out there that don't have the gioonies (SP) enough to use the rules that are in the book appropriately and make it a hey-day for other officials when they do.

I have no problem with cheering, clapping and team spirit encouragement but, when the so intent is to gain an advantage in violation of the rules then it is my job to enforce them. I agree it is umpires judgement here but, I have had situations with runners on third clapping and yelling at the pitcher with a clear intent to get the pitcher to balk. "Hey Blue, no one ever said that was illegal before." Whole teams beginning rythmatic chanting only when a runner is on third and the pitcher is come set. It then increases in volume as the pitcher gets ready to pitch. "Hey Blue, no one ever said that was illegal before."

For the most part, I agree with everything said here but, I just want to point out that discretion is just as important in knowing when not to insert yourself in the game, as it is when you should be enforcing the rules.

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Gentlemen, based upon the description of this alone, this is a rules violation.

How is it different than F4/F5 tapping their gloves behind R2 as they move back and forth, trying to keep him closer to 2B? That's also intended as a distraction, and no different than a runner clapping his hands while leading off. Are players really THAT mentally fragile that they can't perform under the slightest pressure?

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by HokieUmp

How is it different than F4/F5 tapping their gloves behind R2 as they move back and forth, trying to keep him closer to 2B? That's also intended as a distraction, and no different than a runner clapping his hands while leading off. Are players really THAT mentally fragile that they can't perform under the slightest pressure?

Wellllllllll, lets see here. how about the umpire stated that he determined what the intent of the runners was, to get the pitcher to balk.

How is it different? Let see here!!!! One is a rule violation the other is not.

The fragility of the players has NOTHING to do with this. Were talking about an officials ability to recognize a rule violation and enforce it, (when it is necessary).

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Wellllllllll, lets see here. how about the umpire stated that he determined what the intent of the runners was, to get the pitcher to balk.

How is it different? Let see here!!!! One is a rule violation the other is not.

The fragility of the players has NOTHING to do with this. Were talking about an officials ability to recognize a rule violation and enforce it, (when it is necessary).

Okay, since your hands are already covered from the s---ty end of the stick (hope you wore gloves!), let me ask this:

In Fed, a pitcher can't pickoff from the windup. So, a lot of times, R3 will take off way down the line from third and bluff a steal. Why? To distract the pitcher - and maybe to get the pitcher to balk. You calling that, too?? Do you think the two things are equal, and do you can them the same?

And back to my other comment: when an infielder is tapping his glove behind the runner, one can make the argument he's hindering the runner, since that runner may take a smaller lead, or be going the wrong way when the pitch is delivered. So that could be called a rules violation, too. (I know: the runner should be listening to a coach. And whatever pitcher is bothered by The Clapper should be worrying about pitching, too.)

What I'm saying is: don't extend every little thing that happens on the field into something to be ruled upon. Some parts of the game can go on without us. Or they'll be policed by the players. And my disagreement with you is that the umpire in question determined this was an attempt to draw a balk, and warranted a warning, and you agree with that; I don't. Therefore, I disagree it's a rule violation.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by HokieUmp

Okay, since your hands are already covered from the s---ty end of the stick (hope you wore gloves!), let me ask this:

In Fed, a pitcher can't pickoff from the windup. So, a lot of times, R3 will take off way down the line from third and bluff a steal. Why? To distract the pitcher - and maybe to get the pitcher to balk. You calling that, too?? Do you think the two things are equal, and do you can them the same?

And back to my other comment: when an infielder is tapping his glove behind the runner, one can make the argument he's hindering the runner, since that runner may take a smaller lead, or be going the wrong way when the pitch is delivered. So that could be called a rules violation, too. (I know: the runner should be listening to a coach. And whatever pitcher is bothered by The Clapper should be worrying about pitching, too.)

What I'm saying is: don't extend every little thing that happens on the field into something to be ruled upon. Some parts of the game can go on without us. Or they'll be policed by the players. And my disagreement with you is that the umpire in question determined this was an attempt to draw a balk, and warranted a warning, and you agree with that; I don't. Therefore, I disagree it's a rule violation.

Wow, youse must be one of doze superumps. You can even officiate games haveing never even seen em. Amazing. Not too good at reading though.

"(when it is necessary)".

As far as the fielder tapping his glove, come on now, I've been around too long to even begin to think that is a hinderance. Hopefully so have you.

Now for the runner at third!! I'll go one better than your example. (Actually happened) The runner takes the same type of lead and begins to specifically yell at the pitcher, at the top of his lungs "Hey Pitch". Your gonna let that go too?

Then I guess your going to let the pitch to that players head go too, just to even things up. Right? Hell, they probably don't even need you at the game because besides balls and strikes you can't be bothered with all those silly rules you don't agree with. Just get a parent out there for a hot dog and coke.

I truly believe your better than that.

And all I have been saying all along here is WHEN the obvious happens during a game , do your job and MAKE THE DANG CALL.

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Wow, youse must be one of doze superumps. You can even officiate games haveing never even seen em. Amazing. Not too good at reading though.

"(when it is necessary)".

...snip...

And all I have been saying all along here is WHEN the obvious happens during a game , do your job and MAKE THE DANG CALL.

I guess I just suck, then. All I've been trying to say is there wasn't a call to be made, as I don't see the 'obviousness' you're mentioning, and I'm not alone, from what I've looked back and read. (Even though reading is apparently not in my skill set, either.)

I will certainly agree with the general statement: WHEN something happens, make a call. That's a "no s---" one, there.

What I've been trying to get across is, in MY opinion - but remember, I suck - this is NOT one of those times. A couple posts ago, you said:

how about the umpire stated that he determined what the intent of the runners was, to get the pitcher to balk.

My point: that umpire was wrong. Sure, he made a call when he saw an 'obvious' rule violation; good for him, and good for his convictions. But he saw a 'rule violation' that wasn't there. So he's wrong.

And sorry that I'm "officiating games having never seen em." Maybe your brilliant discourse has confused me, but when we talk about games and situations in an Internet forum, and say "what we had," isn't that the friggin' point?? - officiating something we weren't there for?

[SAump]

Applause to you both. You made some good points on each side. Kinda philosophical in a way, with no "ideal" right answer. I am wiser to learn and consider both sides of the argument and use them as I feel best on the ball field.

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Gentlemen, based upon the description of this alone, this is a rules violation.

I agree with Ozzy that some officials "like to make up rules and adjust rules to fit situations," however, there are many out there that don't have the gioonies (SP) enough to use the rules that are in the book appropriately and make it a hey-day for other officials when they do.

I have no problem with cheering, clapping and team spirit encouragement but, when the so intent is to gain an advantage in violation of the rules then it is my job to enforce them. I agree it is umpires judgement here but, I have had situations with runners on third clapping and yelling at the pitcher with a clear intent to get the pitcher to balk. "Hey Blue, no one ever said that was illegal before." Whole teams beginning rythmatic chanting only when a runner is on third and the pitcher is come set. It then increases in volume as the pitcher gets ready to pitch. "Hey Blue, no one ever said that was illegal before."

For the most part, I agree with everything said here but, I just want to point out that discretion is just as important in knowing when not to insert yourself in the game, as it is when you should be enforcing the rules.

Clear intent ? Perhaps they are merely trying to put the pitcher's focus on themselves (the baserunners), rather than his duty at hand, making a quality pitch. I draw a distinction between attempting to cause a balk and "shaking up" the pitcher. There is no rule, of which I am aware, that would prevent a runner from attempting to unnerve the pitcher.

[chuckfan1]

...yes, of course bush league....and the higher levels of ball you do, you dont (usually) see that.
At this level, a little bit of "sometimes you just gotta umpire" might work. And in this case maybe a word to the coach between innings.

Call him over, take out the line-up, as if thats what the conversation is about, and maybe something like:

.."Coach, Im not one to dampen enthusiasm, but is the clapping thing really necessary? I mean, whats next, 'hey batter-batter'?"....

Ive used that a few times on similar situations (you have to pick your spot), but its always worked, the coach feels that his team is being looked upon as having to resort to "ankle-biter" tactics to try and win, as opposed to just playing the game.

They stop that crap...at least for that game..

[JR12]

I have had coaches complain about the bench chanting and the runner clapping. To be honest, I didn't notice it until it was brought to my attention.
The way I fugured was, if I am that focused on my job, the players should be that focused on theirs! I block it out and do nothing. Don't get that in HS and up.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by JR12

Don't get that in HS and up.

The sad part is, I've seen it in HS and up. Usually by teams with poor quality coaching.