Sectional 1-0 controversy

[archangel]

Talked to my assignor today, he relayed what he heard on a FED sectional game, won by Dayton Fairmont over Cincy Elder, 1-0, when the Elder pitcher walked in the winning run,with 2 outs, bases loaded, to "end the game".

Seems the BR made it halfway to 1st, then stopped to celebrate with the team. F4 sees that, and goes over with the ball and touches 1st. Elder coach says run doesnt count- abandonment. One umpire had ruled out,BR finally touches 1st, the officials gather (supposedly look thru their rulebook, call state officials for opinions, finally rule safe, run counts.

Assignor says game was delayed 1 hr before final ruling.
Heres the Cincy article.

Elder loses 1-0 amid controversy | Cincinnati Enquirer | Cincinnati.Com

[eagle_12]

Great quote by the kid that walked to force in the run.

"Plus, it was a walk, so I thought it was a dead ball"

It never ceases to amaze me that players don't know or understand the rules to their own game

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by eagle_12

Great quote by the kid that walked to force in the run.

"Plus, it was a walk, so I thought it was a dead ball"

It never ceases to amaze me that players don't know or understand the rules to their own game

Wouldn't it be the coaches job to teach the players the ru....., oops, sorry, that would presuppose that the coaches knew the rules. What was I thinking?

[lostdb4]

Read your rulebooks. In OBR, during a walk, hit-by pitch, etc., the runner must proceed directly to first. Now this is based on the umpire's judgment of what is "a reasonable attempt" to achieve 1st base. The rulebook (OBR) states that a runner must proceed directly to first base in a "reasonable" fashon (not word for word, but I can look it up)...... again judgement call.

It doesn't matter that the ball is dead, if in the umpire's judgment, that he did not reasonably aquire 1st, then he is within the rules to put him out.

I didn't see the play, but if the guy merely stopped briefly on the baseline to shake some hands, and then proceeded to first, I wouldn't have called him out, however, if he left the baseline in any way (ie: to go to the dug-out, or even shifted direction 5-10 ft off his course to first, I would have called him OUT!

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by lostdb4

Read your rulebooks. In OBR,

This was listed in the OP as a FED game.

[Tim C]

"Read your rulebooks."

Read the OP then pop-off.

[umpjong]

Fed. pg 48,49. 8-2 Art. 1 and Penalty (Art. 1-5)

8-2 Art. 1 An advancing runner shall touch first, second, third and then home plate in order, including awarded bases.

Penalty (Art. 1-5) For failure to touch a base (advancing and returning), or failure to tag up as soon as the ball is touched on a caught fly ball, the runner may be called out if an appeal is made by the defensive team.

As soon as the runner stops to "celebrate", he is fair game to be put out on appeal. The rule specifically says "shall" touch, it doesnt say that they may take their sweet time in doing so. I've got an out and play on.

Kudos to the second baseman for his knowledge of the rules...

As we know, there is no crying in baseball, and we should know that there are no detours either............

[archangel]

Originally Posted by umpjong

Fed. pg 48,49. 8-2 Art. 1 and Penalty (Art. 1-5)

8-2 Art. 1 An advancing runner shall touch first, second, third and then home plate in order, including awarded bases.

Penalty (Art. 1-5) For failure to touch a base (advancing and returning), or failure to tag up as soon as the ball is touched on a caught fly ball, the runner may be called out if an appeal is made by the defensive team.

As soon as the runner stops to "celebrate", he is fair game to be put out on appeal. The rule specifically says "shall" touch, it doesnt say that they may take their sweet time in doing so. I've got an out and play on....
.

I dont see a rule on illegal celebration, specifically with regards to this OP, and wonder how you would rule when a batter hits a HR, and temporarily stops to shake his 3rd base coach's hand. Or maybe stops on his way to 1st to hand the coach his batting gloves while giving him a high five.

Your use of the words "shall touch" does not mean "immediately" or "take your time" in my opinion.

Sure, common sense dictates that at some point, the batter runner realizes his mistake and goes to 1st, or is told to go to 1st, or he sees/hears an attempted appeal on him which "wakes him up", or he ignorantly enters the dugout. Ruling an out in this OP was wrong. If I was BU, I'd keep my eye on batter runner- something will happen to make me rule correctly..

What interested me was not the fact that the officials eventually ruled correctly, but that 3 of them couldnt come to a decision on the field, looked in a rulebook, then called on a cell for outside help(per the assignor) which took 1 hr.
Frankly, thats embarrassing.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by archangel

What interested me was not the fact that the officials eventually ruled correctly, but that 3 of them couldn't come to a decision on the field, looked in a rulebook, then called on a cell for outside help (per the assignor) which took 1 hr.
Frankly, that's embarrassing.

It really is. HS varsity playoff umpires. Make a call for crying out loud, and don't bring out the book either. You would dump a coach for doing that.

As long as the B/R touched 1st base before going into the dugout, he's good by me. Game over. Balls on the plate, head for the gate.

[SAump]

BRD 95 FED: A runner awarded first is out if he is not on base before the time of the next pitch, he reaches his bench or dugout, or the infielders have left the diamond. (8.1.1b)
OBR (4.09 Penalty.)

How long was the celebration?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by umpjong

Fed. pg 48,49. 8-2 Art. 1 and Penalty (Art. 1-5)

8-2 Art. 1 An advancing runner shall touch first, second, third and then home plate in order, including awarded bases.

Penalty (Art. 1-5) For failure to touch a base (advancing and returning), or failure to tag up as soon as the ball is touched on a caught fly ball, the runner may be called out if an appeal is made by the defensive team.

There's aloso 9-1-1 Note 1 "The umpire shall not declare the game over until all runners have advanced to the next bse."

[umpjong]

"During the controversy, Elder second baseman Selby Chidemo noticed Marcano had not touched first base and he went over and stepped on the base with the baseball in his glove. One of the umpires then ruled Marcano out. Marcano eventually left his group and touched first base in hopes of completing the play."

This sounds to me like he wasnt just delayed a second or two. Would like to see in real time, but "eventually left his group" and the time it would have taken F4 to retrieve the ball and go to first and get the umpires attention.....
Unless this sequence was less than a couple of seconds, I still have an out.... How long are you going to let him celebrate, and make the defense wait to appeal?

[MrUmpire]

What was the defense going to appeal, and under which rule?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by umpjong

"During the controversy, Elder second baseman Selby Chidemo noticed Marcano had not touched first base and he went over and stepped on the base with the baseball in his glove. One of the umpires then ruled Marcano out. Marcano eventually left his group and touched first base in hopes of completing the play."

This sounds to me like he wasnt just delayed a second or two. Would like to see in real time, but "eventually left his group" and the time it would have taken F4 to retrieve the ball and go to first and get the umpires attention.....
Unless this sequence was less than a couple of seconds, I still have an out.... How long are you going to let him celebrate, and make the defense wait to appeal?

I got all day. F1 couldn't throw a strike so I certainly am not looking for the poopy end of the stick.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by archangel

I dont see a rule on illegal celebration, specifically with regards to this OP, and wonder how you would rule when a batter hits a HR, and temporarily stops to shake his 3rd base coach's hand.

HR - Ball dead. Non-intentional walk - ball live. Different situations. Anyway, they got the call right, which is the important thing. The batter-runner touched first before the infielders left the diamond apparently.