Missed a call. What would you have done?

[Bfair]

Pete Booth states (in black):
Steve, yes in a 2 person system, the PU has to help out, however, not with R3, especially if R3 is coming home.

When we have r3 the PU's job is as follows:

1. The tag up if there is a fly ball
[Has this been a problem for you as PU when a swipe tag is occuring at 1B?]

2. Any action around thrid base ie, interference by R3 or obstruction by F5
[Has this been a problem for you as PU when a swipe tag is occuring at 1B?]

3. Then there's the play at the plate. Is F2 obstructing R3? Did R3 actually touch the plate? Did F2 apply the tag.
[Has this been a problem for you as PU when a swipe tag is occuring at 1B?

I haven't had many tags by F2 while F3 is making a swipe tag near 1B.
I've never had home appealed after a swipe tag along 1B line.
Would you like to tell us your experiences on this?]

It is not a good idea to make calls some 90 ft. away. The reason we go to clinics is to learn proper positioning and timing. When we have r3, the BU should know that he /she is on her own.
[Really !!! Who covers fly balls to left when your partner is in A position?
What do you do when you are PU and there is R3 and a deep fly on the rightfield line---expect a fan to call the catch/no catch?
When you are in A, what do you do when PU asks you about a check swing---tell him it's HIS job because you are more than 90 ft. away?
Many calls are made from beyond 90 ft. away.....
Angle over distance is a well known rule within umpiring, Pete.]

The PU has enough responsibilities with R3 already, let's see (1) call the pitch, (2) Fair / Foul (3) Any action around the plate area ie; Catcher's / batter's interference and some others, (4) DBT - it's the PU 's call to watch for ball going into DBT, (4) The tag up at third base and finally the call at home. If the BU cannot make this call why have a BU. Steve the BU has to earn his / her paycheck also.
[Have any of these been a problem for you as PU when a swipe tag is occuring at 1B?]

IMO the play in question worked this time, but if as BU you get in a habit of pointing to your partner when your partner is some 90 ft. away, you are asking for trouble.
[As stated before, PU's I work with are trained to watch the 1B line on this type play and are expected to be ready to support their partner if needed.
While you refer to it as "getting in the habit" it doesn't occur that often. I prefer to think of it as confidence in your partner and your own crew coordination. I thnk you apply a misnomer to the assistance expected.

Pete, you've listed well many of the reasons you think that a PU cannot assist his partner.
You forgot to add that the PU is responsible for the plate conference........]

With nobody on that's different, because the PU is supposed to come out and be in position to aid his partner, however, the PU isn't 90 ft. away either.

Suppose the PU couldn't help on this play in other words he didn't see the tag and now your partner points to you. He /she just hung you out to dry Now get ready for holy he** to break out. This call belongs to the BU - PERIOD and it's the BU's job to get into proper position. If he /she can't then sell the call the best you can.
If he didn't see the tag, then answer the question and say "NO".
That's all that asked.
It's obvious the original call belonged to BU and that BU has done everything he can do to attempt to get information covering all angles---including those he was blocked out of.
The technique is well appreciated, even if PU has not seen a tag from 90 ft. away despite it occurring. Still, he can correct "obvious errors."

We just differ on this approach which as they say makes the world go around.
Agreed, Pete, we differ significantly !!!!
I will support my partner where and when I can.
I don't care about "did my partner earn his money."
I change from PU to BU in different games; it all balances out.
I prepare to help my partner in plays where known problems occur vs. watching uncontested touches of home plate.
I won't take the attitude "that's your job" no matter how difficult the decision or the predicament we face as a crew.
He's my partner: we are a team. I don't forget that fact.
You obviously see it differently.

Pete, do you care to tell us about the other problems you've encountered elsewhere on the field on these such plays vs. providing help for you partner along the 1B line?

Inquiring minds want to know..............


Just my opinion,

Freix






[Edited by Bfair on Jul 5th, 2002 at 08:32 AM]

[devdog69]

Freix and Pete:
Your points about the ensuing action affected by the call are well taken. Perhaps the basketball analogy wasn't a good one. My main point was that the theory of holding on a call to ask your partner for help was just not plausible in some situations. Just as you point out, the continuing action is going to be affected by BU's call and there is no way to freeze the action and ask PU if he can help with the call. It's BU's call to make and I think he should make it based on what he sees, then if he has reason to believe he may not have seen the entire play, i.e., a missed tag, he can then ask for help if he see's fit. If your philosophy is to either get help before making a call or not at all, that is fine. Just don't tell me with a straight face that on a bang-bang play at first, you are going to stop and check with your partner to see if he saw something you didn't. Btw, Freix, my name is Devon, that is just a quote from David Hume at the bottom of my posts. Thanks for the discussion, it gets pretty boring on the basketball board this time of the year.

[Bfair]

Sorry about the name confusion, Devon.

There are, indeed, times when a BU on a banger immediately points to PU when blocked out on a swipe tag and asks,
"Did YOU see a tag?"

That action indicates that BU did NOT see the tag, and that the runner will be safe unless PU can confirm that PU saw a tag due to an improved angle on a broken play (added information). It also means, however, that the BU has judged that the action of the tag, in his judgment, beat the runner's touch of the base. Certainly if the touching of the base beat the action of the tag, then there is no need to even check for additional information. The official would simply declare the runner safe as the tag would not matter. In checking, the addtional information regarding the legal tag is all that is needed for the final decision to be made.

In plays where continued action occurs, getting additional help and changing a call may not be the best solution.

Still, like in basketball where an official may make an obviously missed call on a ball coming off a player and going out of bounds---there is no ensuing action to affect. There are also many instances in baseball where there is no ensuing affected. "Obviously wrong calls" can legally be corrected in many instances with the added information from your partner, but calls should not be changed merely because your partner judged the timing of a play differently. Help should not be sought to check your partner's opinion on the accuracy of your judgment; help should be sought when "added information" can help make a correct call.


Just my opinion,

Freix