So who saw the rules screw-up in Wednesday's (4-15-09) Padres @ Mets game?

[Durham]

Originally Posted by Armadillo_Blue

The terms refer to the status of the runner upon whom the appeal is being made. If the runner is making an attempt to return to the bag after missing it then a tag must be applied. If the runner is not attempting to return then the action is unrelaxed and the base can be touched and a verbal appeal made.

If this is correct, and I do not believe it is, then why do we allow the live ball appeal of a runner leaving early to be decided by the ball simply being returned to the base ahead of the runner? Per your ruling the defense would be required to tag the runner and not just return the ball to the base.

[johnnyg08]

isn't there something in the rule where there's the 'obvious' factor where there's a retouch obligation versus simply just missing a base?

[Durham]

either way aren't they both appeals?

[johnnyg08]

they are, but you eliminate the accidental appeal

[Armadillo_Blue]

Originally Posted by Durham

If this is correct, and I do not believe it is, then why do we allow the live ball appeal of a runner leaving early to be decided by the ball simply being returned to the base ahead of the runner? Per your ruling the defense would be required to tag the runner and not just return the ball to the base.

If you read what I wrote, the concept is a concept applied to a runner returning to a base missed. The concept does not apply to leaving early on a fly ball.

The most common usage of the relaxed/unrelaxed concept is the play at home where the runner misses the plate and the fielder misses the tag. Technically the runner has missed home so by rule the catcher could just step on the plate and announce an appeal. In practice, however, if the runner is scrambling back toward the plate we require a tag of the runner for an out. This would be unrelaxed action.

If, however the runner starts walking towards the dugout, making no attempt to correct his error, this is unrelaxed action. In this instance we do not require the catcher to chase down the runner, but instead allow him to step on the plate and appeal the miss.

Although most often seen at home, this concept can be applied equally to other bases, i.e. a runner slides around second and then scrambles back towards it.

[soundedlikeastrike]

Consider this:
C. time please.
U. sorry coach, you can't make a second trip.
C. I'm pulling him, get my lefty.
U. Okay.

I'm thinking that's a legal substitution and not a trip.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

Consider this:
C. time please.
U. sorry coach, you can't make a second trip.
C. I'm pulling him, get my lefty.
U. Okay.

I'm thinking that's a legal substitution and not a trip.

Can't happen during the same at bat that he took the trip. (unless F1 is injured)

[UMP25]

ManinBlue is correct.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by Armadillo_Blue

The terms refer to the status of the runner upon whom the appeal is being made. If the runner is making an attempt to return to the bag after missing it then a tag must be applied. If the runner is not attempting to return then the action is unrelaxed and the base can be touched and a verbal appeal made.

OBR. This is only true at home plate. If R1 misses second as he rounds it, he can be out on appeal by the fielder simply saying "he missed the base" and then tagging the base regardless if the runner is trying to get back or not. Pro interpretations do not recognize J/R's interp of "relaxed/unrelaxed" for missed base appeals.

[soundedlikeastrike]

So your implying the rule reads:

"No pitcher may be substituted after one visit if the same batters at bat."

I and apparently the crew working the OP disagree.

The rule means you can't go out and "visit".

If C is yanking him, I wouldn't consider that a visit.

And IMO on the relaxed vs unrelaxed appeal, side on the D, don't ever disadvantage the D for the O error.

EX: R2 base hit, throw to retire R2 at HP swipe tag misses the runner, runner misses the plate and is several feet removed, but attempting to scramble back, mean while BR is digging for 2B. If F2 has his head about him and appeals, I would grant the appeal and hopefully allow an out on the BR at
2nd. Umpires like outs.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

So your implying the rule reads:

"No pitcher may be substituted after one visit if the same batters at bat."

I and apparently the crew working the OP disagree.

The rule means you can't go out and "visit".

If C is yanking him, I wouldn't consider that a visit.

Whether you consider it a "visit" or not is irrelevant. A manager/coach cannot make a second trip to the same pitcher while the same batter is at bat. Period. Furthermore, the manager/coach cannot try to circumvent this by just changing his pitcher, even if he does so from the dugout. The at-bat must be completed before the already-visited pitcher can be removed (absent injury or substitute).

The crew working this game didn't disagree; they simply f---ed up.

[Armadillo_Blue]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

OBR. This is only true at home plate. If R1 misses second as he rounds it, he can be out on appeal by the fielder simply saying "he missed the base" and then tagging the base regardless if the runner is trying to get back or not. Pro interpretations do not recognize J/R's interp of "relaxed/unrelaxed" for missed base appeals.

I was not aware that the interp only applied to home. For some reason I had the impression that it applied at the bases as well.

Does J/R suggest it for the bases and the pros just don't do it that way or did I misunderstand?

Is there a difference in the pro interp between a runner who misses rounding the bag and then realizes it and comes running back vs. a runner who slides in and misses the bag while the fielder misses the tag and then scrambles back?

In soundedlikeastrike's example, remember that the D erred also by missing the tag, so we are not penalizing them for an offensive error. If the runner is scrambling back to the plate make the catcher tag him.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by Durham

Well, the NCAA continually tries to clarify their rule book and remove ambiguity and look at how much thicker it seems to get each year. And all the while the rules stay essentially unchanged. The OBR has worked for a hundred years with slight changes along the way, leave it alone.

It's because they stick all of the stuff they pull out into the DH section. It's huge enough that they think no one will notice.

Originally Posted by UMP25

Someone tell those announcers to just SHUT UP. THEIR ignorance isn't helping things, either!

If you're going to call someone ignorant, do it without making yourself look ignorant as well.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

So your implying the rule reads:

"No pitcher may be substituted after one visit if the same batters at bat."

I and apparently the crew working the OP disagree.

The rule means you can't go out and "visit".

If C is yanking him, I wouldn't consider that a visit.

I didn't mean to imply that. I meant to be stating it. UMP25 already answered this, but the pitcher has to complete the at bat before he can be "re-visited." OBR also state 2nd visit to the same pitcher in the same inning gets him yanked - Skip doesn't have to tell us he's pulling him. The only exception to completing the at bat is injury.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by DonInKansas

If you're going to call someone ignorant, do it without making yourself look ignorant as well.

It's called a typo. It happens. I know full well the difference between "there," "they're," and "their," as well as "lose" and "loose."

Trust me; you don't want to pick a grammar fight with me.