When is a conference charged?

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

You seem to be confused about the two rules.

FED - the conference ends when the coach leaves the mound and crosses the foul line (going back to the dugout). The coach can leave the mound, head to the foul line, turn and meet with F3, just as long as he does not cross the foul line.

OBR - the visit ends the moment the manager's feet touch the infield grass (leaves the dirt of the mound). He cannot meet with anyone else once he leaves the dirt of the mound for any reason. He must continue into the dugout. The foul line does not come into play for ending the visit as it does in FED.

Fully aware of both rules. That is not the argument here.

Refer to the original post: Manager makes pitching change, walks back to the dugout, then walks back onto the field to second baseman. Umpire informs manager that he was charged a conference as he is walking back to the dugout.

You can't charge a conference because the umpire should have disallowed the meeting between the manager and second baseman to happen.

I really want to see the rule you are trying to apply that allows an umpire to charge a conference after a pitching change but before the pitcher has faced a batter or a third out is made.

[jkumpire]

1. HC has conference with pitcher, and replaces him. No conference charged.
2. Sometime during the conference he heads to the dugout. By rule, conference is over, correct?
3. He then goes out to talk with infielders. HOW is that not another conference?
4. If he has conferences left, how is it illegal to use one?
5. Your rule does not apply here, if he had no conferences left, then he could not cross the foul line and have another conference. There is nothing in the rules that say he cannot use two or three conferences during one AB if he wants to, as long as the number of conferences used in the game do not add up to more than three.
6. If he goes into the dugout for a reason, say, equipment needed changed, and he goes out to an infielder, and tells the PU why, that's another story.
He had every chance to talk to the infielders while he was on the mound making a pitching change. In the OC he gave that right up when he went past the foul line.

Please show me where this is wrong.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

1. HC has conference with pitcher, and replaces him. No conference charged.
2. Sometime during the conference he heads to the dugout. By rule, conference is over, correct?
3. He then goes out to talk with infielders. HOW is that not another conference?
4. If he has conferences left, how is it illegal to use one?
5. Your rule does not apply here, if he had no conferences left, then he could not cross the foul line and have another conference. There is nothing in the rules that say he cannot use two or three conferences during one AB if he wants to, as long as the number of conferences used in the game do not add up to more than three.
6. If he goes into the dugout for a reason, say, equipment needed changed, and he goes out to an infielder, and tells the PU why, that's another story.
He had every chance to talk to the infielders while he was on the mound making a pitching change. In the OC he gave that right up when he went past the foul line.

Please show me where this is wrong.

1) We agree here
2) Still agree
3) This is where we disagree. Last time I'm going to explain it:
FED 3-1-2: If a pitcher is replaced while his team is on defense, the substitute pitcher shall pitch to the batter then at bat or any substitute for that batter until such batter is put out or reaches base or until a third out is made. To ensure that the requirements of this article be fulfilled, the umpire will deny any coach-defensive player conference that will violate the rule.

Read it again:

the umpire will deny any coach-defensive player conference that will violate the rule.[/

The coach makes the change, goes back to dugout, decides he wants to come back out. Umpire should say, "No, coach, you can not come back out for a conference until the pitcher has faced a batter or recorded a third out."

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

1) We agree here
2) Still agree
3) This is where we disagree. Last time I'm going to explain it:
FED 3-1-2: If a pitcher is replaced while his team is on defense, the substitute pitcher shall pitch to the batter then at bat or any substitute for that batter until such batter is put out or reaches base or until a third out is made. To ensure that the requirements of this article be fulfilled, the umpire will deny any coach-defensive player conference that will violate the rule.

Read it again:

the umpire will deny any coach-defensive player conference that will violate the rule.[/

The coach makes the change, goes back to dugout, decides he wants to come back out. Umpire should say, "No, coach, you can not come back out for a conference until the pitcher has faced a batter or recorded a third out."

The part you seem to be missing is "THE RULE" -- and "THE RULE" is that a pitcher must face one batter (or have the side retired) before he's replaced.

So, we all agree -- if the conference would require the pitcher to be removed, then the conference should not be allowed.

But, if the conference would NOT require the pitcher to be removed, then the conference is allowed.

[TwoBits]

Good luck with the rest of the season.

I'm done here. All out of troll food.

[jkumpire]

The guys talking to you, including me are anything but Trolls. That last post is really discouraging. You are intentionally misreading our posts, then hitting us because you don't like the answer. Man up.

[cc6]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Good luck with the rest of the season.

I'm done here. All out of troll food.

I don't understand what you mean by troll. It looked like people here were having a good discussion, then you made that unnecessary comment.

[dash_riprock]

TwoBits: This is a rare instance where the written rule also sets forth the purpose (spirit) of the rule: "To ensure that the requirements of this article [3-1-2] be fulfilled..." 3-1-2 is in the "Substituting" section, and requires a substitute pitcher to face one batter (unless he is injured or dumped). It has nothing to do with defining or limiting charged conferences. They are covered in 2-10-1 and 3-4.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Good luck with the rest of the season.

I'm done here. All out of troll food.

DG, JK and Bob Jenkins are trolls? In Bizarro World, maybe.

Reasonable and knowlegeable people corrected you. Accept it, learn from it and move on; or take your ball and go home. Your choice.

[TwoBits]

I'll respectfully apologize, guys. In my haste to reply, I neglected to read Mr. Jenkins's response clearly. In re-reading Mr. Jenkins's response, it is clear that I was wrong in my interpretation.

As for the troll comment, I was so sure that I was right that others were disputing me just to be disruptive. Sorry guys, my fault, my mistake. Don't hate me for it.

[Umpmazza]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

1. HC has conference with pitcher, and replaces him. No conference charged.
2. Sometime during the conference he heads to the dugout. By rule, conference is over, correct?
3. He then goes out to talk with infielders. HOW is that not another conference?
4. If he has conferences left, how is it illegal to use one?
5. Your rule does not apply here, if he had no conferences left, then he could not cross the foul line and have another conference. There is nothing in the rules that say he cannot use two or three conferences during one AB if he wants to, as long as the number of conferences used in the game do not add up to more than three.
6. If he goes into the dugout for a reason, say, equipment needed changed, and he goes out to an infielder, and tells the PU why, that's another story.
He had every chance to talk to the infielders while he was on the mound making a pitching change. In the OC he gave that right up when he went past the foul line.

Please show me where this is wrong.

In the NCAA when the new pitchers starts his warm ups the Conference is over, the coach is NOT allowed to talk to any other players.

[Umpmazza]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

5. Your rule does not apply here, if he had no conferences left, then he could not cross the foul line and have another conference. There is nothing in the rules that say he cannot use two or three conferences during one AB if he wants to, as long as the number of conferences used in the game do not add up to more than three.

Please show me where this is wrong.

5.. you are really wrong...

NCAA Rule 9-4 try to read this one....

b. If a coach or his nonplaying representative goes to the mound a second
time in the inning to talk to the same pitcher, the pitcher must be
removed from the pitcher’s position for the remainder of the game. The
coach is to indicate the relief pitcher to an umpire immediately after
crossing the foul line (see 7-2-c-[5]-[b]-[4]);
A.R. 1—If, after one trip to the same pitcher in the same inning, or three free trips in a
game, the coach goes to the plate umpire to announce a pitching change (does not go to
the mound), a second trip shall be charged (when the change is recorded on the official
lineup card). If moved to a defensive position, the pitcher shall not return to pitch.
A.R. 2—The relief pitcher, when called from the bullpen by the umpire, must proceed
immediately to the mound. Any additional pitches thrown in the bullpen will be subtracted
from the eight preparatory pitches permitted on the mound. In the case of an injury to
114 RULE 9 / PITCHING
the current pitcher, the substitute pitcher shall take all warm-up pitches from the game
mound.
c. A coach may not make a second trip to the mound in the same inning
with the same batter at bat. However, if a pinch-hitter is substituted, the
coach may make a second trip but must remove the pitcher;
(1) In this pinch-hitter situation, a relief pitcher, having just been brought
in to pitch, may not be removed from the game before pitching
completely to one batter or the side has been retired (see 5-5-b).
(2) If the coach previously has used the allowed free trips and mistakenly
is allowed to go to the mound for a conference, the pitcher shall be
removed from the position after the batter completes the turn at bat.
The pitcher may not re-enter the game as a pitcher.
(3) If the coach starts to the mound for a second trip with the same batter
at bat in the same inning, the umpire shall warn that this act is not
permitted. If the coach continues to the mound, the coach shall be
ejected and the pitcher must complete pitching to the batter; when
the batter’s turn is completed, the pitcher shall be removed from the
game. The coach should be warned of the impending removal so that
another pitcher can start warming up. The substitute pitcher shall be
permitted the eight preparatory pitches unless circumstances justify
additional pitches.

[jkumpire]

Originally Posted by Umpmazza

5.. you are really wrong...

NCAA Rule 9-4 try to read this one....

b. If a coach or his nonplaying representative goes to the mound a second
time in the inning to talk to the same pitcher, the pitcher must be
removed from the pitcher’s position for the remainder of the game. The
coach is to indicate the relief pitcher to an umpire immediately after
crossing the foul line (see 7-2-c-[5]-[b]-[4]);
A.R. 1—If, after one trip to the same pitcher in the same inning, or three free trips in a
game, the coach goes to the plate umpire to announce a pitching change (does not go to
the mound), a second trip shall be charged (when the change is recorded on the official
lineup card). If moved to a defensive position, the pitcher shall not return to pitch.
A.R. 2—The relief pitcher, when called from the bullpen by the umpire, must proceed
immediately to the mound. Any additional pitches thrown in the bullpen will be subtracted
from the eight preparatory pitches permitted on the mound. In the case of an injury to
114 RULE 9 / PITCHING
the current pitcher, the substitute pitcher shall take all warm-up pitches from the game
mound.
c. A coach may not make a second trip to the mound in the same inning
with the same batter at bat. However, if a pinch-hitter is substituted, the
coach may make a second trip but must remove the pitcher;
(1) In this pinch-hitter situation, a relief pitcher, having just been brought
in to pitch, may not be removed from the game before pitching
completely to one batter or the side has been retired (see 5-5-b).
(2) If the coach previously has used the allowed free trips and mistakenly
is allowed to go to the mound for a conference, the pitcher shall be
removed from the position after the batter completes the turn at bat.
The pitcher may not re-enter the game as a pitcher.
(3) If the coach starts to the mound for a second trip with the same batter
at bat in the same inning, the umpire shall warn that this act is not
permitted. If the coach continues to the mound, the coach shall be
ejected and the pitcher must complete pitching to the batter; when
the batter’s turn is completed, the pitcher shall be removed from the
game. The coach should be warned of the impending removal so that
another pitcher can start warming up. The substitute pitcher shall be
permitted the eight preparatory pitches unless circumstances justify
additional pitches.

This is a FED, not an NCAA situation, I never discussed NCAA rules here.

[DG]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Fully aware of both rules. That is not the argument here.

Refer to the original post: Manager makes pitching change, walks back to the dugout, then walks back onto the field to second baseman. Umpire informs manager that he was charged a conference as he is walking back to the dugout.

You can't charge a conference because the umpire should have disallowed the meeting between the manager and second baseman to happen.

I really want to see the rule you are trying to apply that allows an umpire to charge a conference after a pitching change but before the pitcher has faced a batter or a third out is made.

The pitching change was not a conference. The return to talk to F4 after crossing the foul line was. He is not disallowed this meeting, unless it would have been the one that caused a pitching change requirement (ie the 4th one in the game). If it were the 4th then it is not allowed to happen.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by DG

The pitching change was not a conference. The return to talk to F4 after crossing the foul line was. He is not disallowed this meeting, unless it would have been the one that caused a pitching change requirement (ie the 4th one in the game). If it were the 4th then it is not allowed to happen.

Ta-Daaaaaaa!