Overthrows with Pressure

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

I have learned through some young A and AA umpires and their evaluators that there really is hardly ever a "need" to go foul. .

You are right, there is hardly ever a need. But, were talking about the time when there is a need. If your not flexible enough to adjust your positioning for any situation what-so-ever than I guess your right.

"To each his own."

[Kevin Finnerty]

Mr. Umpire,

If you bust in on a play near the 3/4 hole, [this is not anger, but emphasis] YOU'RE GOING TO INTERFERE WITH THE PLAY!

What's the story? How can you possibly be in position to get everything right by being so stubborn about taking it all, while your partner watches you struggle? What's the point?

I am a former wide receiver and center fielder. I was always one of the fastest guys in any league and any sport I was ever a part of. I am over 50, and I am somewhere near my playing weight and I am still one of the fastest guys anywhere near my age. I love to run and I love the idea that I am even able to still do any kind of a sprint.

I can not go from calling a pressure play at first to calling a subsequent play at second and get close enough to call a banger. It's cool if you think you can just because some manual says you're supposed to.

The best statement was TTS's: "As fast as some of these HS kids are, not to mention college players, the BU having to travel across the diamond and have an angle on the play is nearly impossible. I'm not saying you would not be able to see the play, but it will look like you didn't."

[UmpJM]

Just as "points of information" here is what the PBUC "Red Book" and CCA manuals have to say on the question:

Originally Posted by PBUC

...However if the base umpire feels pressure form the 2nd baseman moving to his left (or from 1st baseman for that matter), it is permissible for the base umpire to move into foul territory to take this type of play, keeping in mind the the concepts of proper distance and angle to the play. In this situation, should the ball be overthrown at 1st base, the base umpire must be ready to swing aroundin front of the cutout at 1B and then get a wide angle so as to be "ahead of the batter-runner for any play at 2B.

The CCA manual does NOT discuss the notion of "pressure" but has this to say for 2-man on an overthrow at 1st w. no runners on base:

Originally Posted by CCA

Since the ball is overthrown at 1B, U1 enters the infield and has all plays on the bases. (A pivot is not necessary.)

UIC observes the ball and rules if it enters dead-ball territory, ...

So, from my read, the two most followed and respected mechanics manuals both suggest that the BU stay with the BR in this sitch.

However, I can certainly imagine a sitch where this would be "sub optimal" coverage because of the specifics of how a particular play developed. If you pre-gamed this with your partner and had good on field communication with him, I could see doing it the other way if the right sitch arose.

The only times I can recall going into foul territory from A is on infield pop-ups down the right field line where the F3 (and/or F4) is coming "right at me" as they attempt to position. I try to stay out of their way and then get back to "the line" by thre time the ball comes down.

JM

[Kevin Finnerty]

The quotations are helpful, indeed. However, the same 75-to-80 feet can be covered by the PU, who, by starting at the 45, has angle the whole way to second base, no matter where he stops to get set for the call. The U1 only has angle after he has busted to the infield, and in so doing, ends up nowhere near as close to the play as the PU could.

So when I called my partner off and sprinted straight to second, I was able to make a call from 15 feet, instead of my partner making it from somewhere between first and the mound. I'll go with the same mechanic most of the time, if that's the result.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

I'm talking about a bad throw to first, as in the OP. As I was taught at school, I will not come set

Fair enough...a few questions...

So you would make your call while moving into the diamond? Is it still the mechanic to make a safe signal at 1B since this is a force play and there's a play being made there? (people go back and forth on that mechanic too)...

I'm not sure if Ussain Bolt could get to the inside of the diamond for the safe/out call at 1B...are you implying that's where you'd try to be for a safe/out/touch/no touch?

My understanding from reading your posts is that you're taking B/R into second..but even w/ pressure from F4, there's no way you're getting into the diamond for a play at 1B...

[Durham]

This is what some might refer to as an advanced mechanic, but all that really means is that it isn't in a mechanics book, because those books cover high percentage situations.

These types of deviations are ok and used to best cover situations that can arise on the field the field for what ever reason. When they are covered this way, they are usually done so usually not by pregaming, but simply having game awareness, and a firm understanding of coverage.

Had one in my plate job on Saturday, where U1 and U3 both went out on a trouble ball to straight away center, F8 diving forward. As I was headed up to 1st to cover for U1, and knowing that there was no way for him to get inside even though it was his job too, I communicated to U3 and he got into the cut out for a whacker at 2nd on the BR.

No one on the field or in the stadium knew we screwed up, but in the end, all they knew is that we covered it. And the best part, U1 bought the first 2 rounds at Franky's fine Italian restaurant.

Point, get the situations covered and allow a better understanding of what they are trying to accomplish help you when the stuff hits the fan.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

Mr. Umpire,

If you bust in on a play near the 3/4 hole, [this is not anger, but emphasis] YOU'RE GOING TO INTERFERE WITH THE PLAY!

No, I am not going to interfere with anything. I have had this play, I have handled correctly as instructed at school and I have never interfered with this play. Perhaps you're projecting.

What's the story? How can you possibly be in position to get everything right by being so stubborn about taking it all, while your partner watches you struggle? What's the point?

Nothing stubborn about handling a mechanic correctly. My partner is doing his job correctly and is knows he has things to do other than watch me doing my job correctly

I am a former wide receiver and center fielder. I was always one of the fastest guys in any league and any sport I was ever a part of. I am over 50, and I am somewhere near my playing weight and I am still one of the fastest guys anywhere near my age. I love to run and I love the idea that I am even able to still do any kind of a sprint.

I can not go from calling a pressure play at first to calling a subsequent play at second and get close enough to call a banger. It's cool if you think you can just because some manual says you're supposed to.

Perhaps one problem is that you either cannot read very well or don't understand the OP or what I have written. I have stated SEVERAL times that upon recognizing the bad throw, I would not be in foul territory or even in my set position. I would not be standing around waiting for the B/R to reach first. I would be busting in and taking his touch of first from the grass.

The best statement was TTS's: "As fast as some of these HS kids are, not to mention college players, the BU having to travel across the diamond and have an angle on the play is nearly impossible. I'm not saying you would not be able to see the play, but it will look like you didn't."

I would give TT the benefit of the doubt and assume he also had not read what I had written.

Look, I don't know why you want to get all excited about someone using the mechanic he learned at proschool. Do what ever you want to do. I really don't care. I don't have to work with you.

[Kevin Finnerty]

I read and understood every single word. You would rather do it by the book no matter what, no matter who's running, no matter how the play unfolds, regardless of who's your partner and what his abilities are, regardless of who would have a better, closer angle, or whether it's the best way to get the call right or not. That's cool.

I just think that the guy with the shorter, more direct, more simple route to the proper angle should take the play. Several others agree.

Perhaps the manuals will be changed to make it the standard mechanic.

[Kevin Finnerty]

And I am happy that this was brought up, because I'm going to cover it in every pregame and see if anyone ever disagrees with that mechanic.

I'll get back with the results, but I'll bet most of them will agree.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Look, I don't know why you want to get all excited about someone using the mechanic he learned at proschool. Do what ever you want to do. I really don't care. I don't have to work with you.

I believe that you are the only one getting "excited." I [we] are just saying that the prescribed mechanic needs to be thrown out much of the time that such a play takes place. The PU has a better angle and a better route.

And let's face it: not every partner is as fast and has the anticipation and cat-like reflexes that you have.

[TussAgee11]

I would be interested to hear what the schools say about this now.

Evans' new book says both are fine, just pregame it (sorry to spoil it! but really, buy it!)

So clearly, some upper people think PU taking B/R is cool. Others obviously feel differently.

As for people who say they never go into foul as BU, well... its in the book that you should and I can't believe that MiLB guys aren't aware of this mechanic or refuse to use it. If you don't in certain situations, you are either a) getting a ball to the back of your head b) getting trampled by B/R c) can't see BR contact the front of the bag.

The pressure debate that has started has surprised me, to say the least. I can change my mind, but nothing I have read here so far has done it!

As for my OP, good healthy discussion! I can see both ways, guess the best thing to do is just pregame and communicate. If I was BU I wouldn't be mad if PU took the ball, and vice versa. As long as I knew it

[UmpJM]

Tuss,

Nice summation, and a good thread.

How does a "college kid" afford Jimmy's new mechanics book, and I don't have one!? You must have gotten better grades than I.

A good discussion from both (or "all 5", depending on how you look at it) points of view and, at least relatively speaking, pretty "civil". Sure made me think about it.

Good question.

JM

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I would be interested to hear what the schools say about this now.

Evans' new book says both are fine, just pregame it (sorry to spoil it! but really, buy it!)

So clearly, some upper people think PU taking B/R is cool. Others obviously feel differently.

As for people who say they never go into foul as BU, well... its in the book that you should and I can't believe that MiLB guys aren't aware of this mechanic or refuse to use it. If you don't in certain situations, you are either a) getting a ball to the back of your head b) getting trampled by B/R c) can't see BR contact the front of the bag.

The pressure debate that has started has surprised me, to say the least. I can change my mind, but nothing I have read here so far has done it!

As for my OP, good healthy discussion! I can see both ways, guess the best thing to do is just pregame and communicate. If I was BU I wouldn't be mad if PU took the ball, and vice versa. As long as I knew it

Tuss:

Jim's new book was written for amateur umpires. It was not written for use by PBUC. There are somethings in it he would not have written if it were. His book has a number of differences from what PBUC expects of its umpires.

As I stated somewhere in this thread, I don't doubt that amateurs teach that it is appropriate for PU to take the runner on a bad throw to first. I have not yet met a professional umpire who agrees. I have put this to a couple of them recently and was basically asked if I was kidding for even brining it up. The usual response is "I never expect my partner to do my job."

Again...To each his own. There are the excitable few who just can't stand to see people work differently than they do. I don't care how others handle this. They can let the PU take the runner and have BU shoot home if they want to. It doesn't matter to me. I'll continue to work this play as I was trained. I'm sincerely sorry if that coninues to upset the southern California contingent.

[Kevin Finnerty]

I fully expected you to somehow make the distinction between you professionals, and all of us lower-level, and therefore, lesser umpires.

I guess my amateurishness is what makes me instinctively employ the better and more effective mechanic and prefer it to the one that the professional manuals have neglected to change to what even Jim Evans believes is a better mechanic.

[UmpJM]

Kevin,

You're doing it again.

Really.

Now, if you'd rather have a serious discussion about umpiring than a pissing contest....

...what even Jim Evans believes is a better mechanic.

Cite please.

I believe your assertion to be incorrect. While I believe he would term it an "acceptable" mechanic, I believe he would say the other is "preferred". Maybe he's changed his position on the question since I attended his training.

Cite please.

JM