Overthrows with Pressure

[TussAgee11]

A good one to cover in pregame for sure, I'm interested what the poll says. Here is the sitch...

No runners, outs don't matter. Groundball hit to the left of F4, BU reads pressure and steps into foul territory. F4 overthrows F3.

My opinion is that BU should take this overthrow, and PU should assume B/R. Here is the reasoning:

1) PU has a free path for a play at 2B, and can also make his way to the 1st base cutout with more ease than BU.

2) The angle of the throw would most likely have the ball hitting a fence about perpendicular to the 45 foot line. PU can't establish much of an angle on this. Although unlikely, the ball could roll through a dugout opening, under the fence, equipment interference, spectator interference, etc. BU, by moving directly to his left, can establish this angle.

3) PU can stare down the B/R for an attempt at 2nd. BU could do this too, but he is moving away from B/R overrunning first. It seems more awkward than PU, who can begin moving into fair territory and is facing B/R the whole time.

Anyone care to offer the other side? Both mechanics are accepted, it would appear anyways.

[UmpJM]

I chose the 2nd option. Had there been an "it depends" option, I would have chosen that. But, given the choice, I believe it is preferable for the PU to take the ball, and the BU the BR - in 90%+ of cases.

I can, however, imagine an "unusual play" where the converse coverage might be "better".

Oddly, had a HS game last year where I was partnered with the guy I've most often worked with. A long time friend who helped me get started umpiring. We actually discussed "trying" the "alternate coverage" should such a sitch develop ("pressure" in the area of 1B AND an overthrow at 1B).

We figured we'd give it a try and see how it worked if the sitch arose. Sure enough, about the bottom of the 2nd, there's a weakly hit grounder to the F3's right, and the F4, F3, & F1 all started going for it. The vector and speed of the ball was such that he got "pinned" by the 3 converging fielders. Then, everyone realized that F4 was the only one who had a ralistic chance of getting it, so the F3 & F1 both diverted to 1B. Both of them, the BR, and the ball all converged at 1B at about the same time.

As this was unfolding, my partner and I made eye contact and "shook off" the alternative mechanic - we could see the rushed throw from F4 was off line. We would have been screwed had we tried it. As it was, the F2 coming up the line caught the overthrow, fired to 1B, and caught the runner being too aggressive rounding 1B on the overthrow.

Somehow, my partner managed to stay completely out of everybody's way and keep a good view of everything as it developed. When the BR got caught coming back to 1B, he was in perfect position and banged him out decisively.

So, I'm not saying it would never work, but I do think it would be a "rare" sitch where it would be better.

JMO.

JM

[johnnyg08]

Keep the PU on the overthrow. Keep BU w/ the runner. What if there's a play at 3B? now you have PU in the middle of the diamond, potentially in a throwing lane. Keep it simple...my version.

[jicecone]

Read and react. Nobody on and the overthrow is closer to BU, PU should have no problem staying in the infield and covering. PU is no more in a throwing lane than his partner would be. If coverage is needed at home?????, BU can get his butt down there easily.

This should not be normal mechanics but, with good communication proper coverage can be provided a lot simpler for this situation than one would think.
Also, no matter how fast the BU is he will always be following the runner to second. The PU has a better chance of obtaining position.

Sometimes you just have to be flexible and make sure coverage is provided. That is what is more important.

[BigTex]

I will take option C-

The BU in a 2-man system should never go into foul territory on a play like this.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by BigTex

I will take option C-

The BU in a 2-man system should never go into foul territory on a play like this.

While I agree with this assertion as a "principle", I disagree with its presentation an an "absolute".

JM

[canadaump6]

Originally Posted by BigTex

I will take option C-

The BU in a 2-man system should never go into foul territory on a play like this.

I try not to go into foul. Have to avoid both the runner and base coach, and the runner crossing the base could block me from seeing a pulled foot. However, if my base partner is comfortable with going into foul, I certainly would want to take the batter runner to 2nd and 3rd.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

A good one to cover in pregame for sure, I'm interested what the poll says. Here is the sitch...

No runners, outs don't matter. Groundball hit to the left of F4, BU reads pressure and steps into foul territory. F4 overthrows F3.

My opinion is that BU should take this overthrow, and PU should assume B/R.

As taught by both schools and practiced by profesional two man crews, BU has B/R.

I suppose amateurs can do whatever they want.

Since a quality was not made the BU would not have come set and there are options to going into foul territory.

[TussAgee11]

I am in JM's camp somewhat - I too could see situations where either/or is better.

Just curious as to the sitch you talked about JM, could the PU not have moved to the cutout for the throw behind the rounding B/R? Seems like a good enough angle to me, considering that is where BU ends up on a throw behind B/R on a single.

And Mr. Umpire, I appreciate the information about what both schools are teaching. The reason I asked is because Evans' book says that both are accepted mechanics, and it is ultimately up to you and your partner to pregame on it.

Lastly, going into foul territory on pressure is something you must do if you want to develop a good angle, end of story. If you step into fair, you have an awful angle on the catch and pulled foot, even worse on seeing when the runner's foot actually touches the bag because you will be blocked by F3. Take two steps to your left, and its beautiful (but don't get too close or overdevelop the angle! see 1985 World Series!)

[ozzy6900]

The poll is inaccurate so I will not vote.

In a 2 man system, normally the BU will take the BR But, if your PU has grown roots behind the plate, someone has to take the overthrow and it will probably be the BU.

The poll doesn't address a 3, 4 or 6 man crew. As a matter of fact, it doesn't address anything about the number of umpires.

[KJUmp]

I'm with Tuss &MrUmp in what they say and their reasoning. I was taught the same way, and have handled that sitch in that manner for a lot of years.
Whether or not BU wants to make that call in fair or foul is really a matter of comfort/personal preference...there's no right or wrong there.
For me it really depends on the angle F4 is taking as he moves to his left to field the ball and make the throw. But let's look at the second part of the play...the overthrow.
BU's first responsibility is the BR...and anything and everything that can happen concerning him. Did he make an attempt to go to 2nd, does he decide to go to 2nd, does he start to go to 2nd and then decides to go back to 1st, possible obstruction? There's no reason for BU to concern himself with the overthrow. One of two things are going to hapen to the ball...(1) it becomes dead or (2) it stays live and in play. PU (who would be moving up the line in the OP's sitch) can easily handle both 1&2 as he's got the play in front of him and can easily move to any position necessary to rule on the ball becoming dead.
BU needs to read & react to the overthrow. If BR goes to 2nd cut behind him and onto the infield grass (if starting from fair territory) pick-up the ball over his right shoulder and let the thorw dictate his angle to make the call at 2nd. If he started in foul territory...it's a straight sprint to the infield grass...and then follows the same process. This should not be a difficult move for BU 99.999% of the time if he has moderate to decent "wheels". If the ball stays live, and BR stated to 2nd then goes back to 1st BR is in position to make the call at 1st should there be a play.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

The poll is inaccurate so I will not vote.

In a 2 man system, normally the BU will take the BR But, if your PU has grown roots behind the plate, someone has to take the overthrow and it will probably be the BU.

The poll doesn't address a 3, 4 or 6 man crew. As a matter of fact, it doesn't address anything about the number of umpires.

Sorry Ozzy, I was assuming 2 man. Obviously 3 or above it gets alot easier to cover this play adaquately.

Furthermore, I'm not sure if PU has grown roots it should be BU with the overthrow. BU should stay with B/R, if PU isn't moving he sure is heck ain't getting him. Maybe you're saying that BU should take both if PU = Smitty?

Again, apologies. Never worked at Quinnipiac before on polling

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Lastly, going into foul territory on pressure is something you must do if you want to develop a good angle, end of story.

Nonsense. There is more to the story. Ask the PBUC evaluators some time.

[Maz17]

This is so stupid. There is NO QUESTION in my mind that all of you... I do not care if you are an Olympic Sprinter... none of you... as a BU can stay ahead of a B/R if you read pressure and go foul! And if you try you will be on the move for a call at 2nd.

THE RED (PBUC) MANUAL states that the PU will take the B/R if the BU reads pressure and goes foul.

If the BU takes the B/R you will be looking up his rear... and have a bad angle... and be on the move!

GUYS... THINK IT THROUGH!

[johnnyg08]

I agree Maz17...there's no other way to cover this IMO...I guess in my pregames, this is how we'll do it...those who disagree on here can do it their way.