Following the Rules

[harmbu]

This happened in a game last night using NFHS rules. A pitch was inside to the opposing batter. He did not budge and it hit him in the arm. He was awarded first base. I called time and this is how the conversation went:

Me: Does he not have to try to avoid being hit?

PU: No. As long as he doesn't lean into it.

Me: Doesn't the rule say that he is not awarded first base if he makes no effort to avoid being hit by the pitch?

PU: That is not how "John" told us to call it.

Me: Well, I don't think that is right. The rulebook says different.

PU: That is the way I am calling it.

At this point I returned to my dugout and made the mistake of not protesting. I got out my rule book and eventually turned to rule 7-3-4.

After the inning ended, I approached both umpires as they were standing together at home plate. This is how this conversation went:

Me: Can I show you what I have found?

PU: Sure.

Me: It says right here the batter shall not permit a pitched ball to touch him. The penalty is the batter remains at bat (pitch is a ball or strike) unless the pitch was a third strike.

PU: I see what you are saying but "John" told us to call it this way.

Me: Even though it specifically says differently in the book?

BU (interjecting): "John" is our rules interpreter.

Me: So he interprets that rule to say something completely different than what I just read?

BU: Well, he must not know about that rule.

Me: Well, how are we going to call it now that we know what the rule is?

PU: We are going to stay with the way that I called it.

Me: So you are telling me that you know the rule, but you are not going to follow it?

PU: That is the fair thing to do.

At this point, I walked away knowing that I was not going to get anywhere with these two guys.

I know some of you will see me a "just another rat whining about umpires", but this really did happen and I would like input on how to deal with situations like this where you show an umpire the rule and he still refuses to follow it.

[BigUmp56]

Teach your pitchers to keep the ball out of the batters box, and the problem is solved. It's a common practice where I work games to award the base in this situation unless the batter leaned into the pitch. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's a common practice in other associations.


Tim.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by harmbu

This happened in a game last night using NFHS rules. A pitch was inside to the opposing batter. He did not budge and it hit him in the arm.

How far inside? Where in the arm? What kind of pitch? Could he (likely) have avoided it even if he tried?

All those factor into how the rule is interpreted.

You've been around long enough to know that what is printed isn't always exactly what is meant.

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by harmbu

At this point I returned to my dugout and made the mistake of not protesting. I got out my rule book and eventually turned to rule 7-3-4.

After the inning ended, I approached both umpires as they were standing together at home plate. This is how this conversation went:

Me: Can I show you what I have found?

PU: Sure.

this is how it would go if i were the PU

You: Can I show you what I have found?

Me: If you don't put that book away and return to the dugout NOW, you're done.

[harmbu]

I knew it. Three replies and pretty much three defenders of the umpire. One of them who a couple of weeks ago can be quoted as saying:

"we would have expressed our sympathy to the coach for getting a good old fashioned screwing by a useless umpire with no sense of ethics.........."

I know this is a different situation all together, but nonetheless when a coach posts, he is torn apart no matter what the situation.

[harmbu]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

this is how it would go if i were the PU

You: Can I show you what I have found?

Me: If you don't put that book away and return to the dugout NOW, you're done.

What if the coach had filed a protest at the point of the misapplication of the rule? Then would you have ejected him for getting out his rulebook?

[mbyron]

Well, you can feel sorry for yourself if you want, but you asked what other umpires thought and you received three responses. I'll offer one more.

I think that the umpire got himself in trouble by denying that the rule says what it does, and then fobbing the denial off on the interpreter.

I had a coach ask me exactly the same question this past season. "Doesn't he have to make an effort to avoid that pitch?" I told the coach: "Yes. And he did. Take your base."

Like other posters, I'm not going to place an undue burden on the batter to avoid a pitch in the batters box. The burden is on the pitcher to avoid the batter, and the only way I'm keeping a hit batter in the box is if he moves into the pitch.

Now you're worried that I lied to the coach about whether the batter made an effort to avoid the pitch. I didn't lie: what does "make an effort" mean?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by harmbu

I knew it. Three replies and pretty much three defenders of the umpire. One of them who a couple of weeks ago can be quoted as saying:

"we would have expressed our sympathy to the coach for getting a good old fashioned screwing by a useless umpire with no sense of ethics.........."

I know this is a different situation all together, but nonetheless when a coach posts, he is torn apart no matter what the situation.

I'm with the umpires.

And no, coaches are not routinely torn apart. I have seen many posts along the lines of "the umpire screwed up - did you protest?"

[harmbu]

I think that the umpire got himself in trouble by denying that the rule says what it does, and then fobbing the denial off on the interpreter.

I had a coach ask me exactly the same question this past season. "Doesn't he have to make an effort to avoid that pitch?" I told the coach: "Yes. And he did. Take your base."

I can live with that. I have thought players leaned into pitches before and asked if he attempted to avoid the pitch. When I was told he did, I assumed the umpire saw it differently than I did and I moved on.

My main concern was with him admitting that he knew the rule, but that he was going to ignore it. Maybe I should have made that more clear in my original post.

Thanks

[BigTex]

Originally Posted by harmbu

I knew it. Three replies and pretty much three defenders of the umpire. One of them who a couple of weeks ago can be quoted as saying:

"we would have expressed our sympathy to the coach for getting a good old fashioned screwing by a useless umpire with no sense of ethics.........."

I know this is a different situation all together, but nonetheless when a coach posts, he is torn apart no matter what the situation.

Wait just a minute there Skip. You came here and asked a question (on an umpires forum), got three answers, and then blasted the umpires. You did not get three defenders of the umpires, you got one who defended the umpire, one who asked for more information regarding your specific play, and one who said the umpire handled it wrong. When you said:

Originally Posted by harmbu

I knew it.

you have admitted to having your mind made up before you even started the conversation. If you want to come here and discuss the rule, and how that particular umpire handled it, we have no problem with that, but don't come here and blast people because you mistakenly thought the umpires were being blindly defended.


FWIW--The plate guy was wrong in the way he handled the situation. I was not there, so I cannot comment on the call, but what happened afterword, you have a right to be upset with.

[harmbu]

Thank you Big Tex. You are correct that I jumped to conclusions. I guess I let my frustrations from the game spill over into the discussion. I do appreciate all the help I get on this board. I have learned a lot over the past several years simply by reading posts that I am not even involved in. Some of the posts here have helped me avoid problems in my own games. I appreciate the people around here.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by harmbu

I knew it. Three replies and pretty much three defenders of the umpire. One of them who a couple of weeks ago can be quoted as saying:

"we would have expressed our sympathy to the coach for getting a good old fashioned screwing by a useless umpire with no sense of ethics.........."

I know this is a different situation all together, but nonetheless when a coach posts, he is torn apart no matter what the situation.

Do you really think the other situation in which I made the above quote is in any way similar to this one? I certainly didn't mean to appear to "tear you apart", but I do think you need to understand what the accepted practice is for many umpires in this situation.


Tim.

[greymule]

I pitched long ago. I don't know how many batters I hit, but over the years it had to be dozens. Only once did an umpire keep the batter in the box, and that was on a change-up, a little high and inside, on which the RH batter clearly stood still and let the ball hit him in the left elbow. (He did not lean into the pitch, however.) The batter complained a little, but not much. His coach said nothing.

There were other times in which the batter did not move, but I could tell that he simply froze. That might meet somebody's definition of "didn't make an effort to avoid," but it was obvious that HBP was the correct call.

[PeteBooth]

Please explain "how you were torn apart"

Tim, Bob and Bobby answered you WITHOUT getting personal with you. What did they say that made you think You were "torn apart"

IMO, your tone with the PU (by bringing out the rule-book) is more in line with "tearing the PU apart" as opposed to the response you got.

The bottom line here is that

Your F1 threw a bad pitch. Was it "heat" a chang-up, slow curve

Perhaps B1 FROZE - it happenes. There are many factors.


The only issue I have with Blue is that he used his interpreter's name instead of just saying "Skip in my judgement the palyer made an effort" - end of story it's time to play.


Are you this sensitive in dealing with your players? If B1 hits a ground ball and "dogs" it to first are you going to say That's ok or are you going to make him sit the pine and put someone in who will hustle.

Pete Booth

[griff901c]

What kind of pitch? A 65 mph breaking ball that doesn't break? Hitter better move.....An 85+ mph fastball...inside... hitter just sorta puckers...go on down.

Now if the hitter throws out a chicken wing or a knee...stay here slugger, your not going anywhere.

As said before..alot of variables in each situation.

How about a pitch that nicks a jersey? Really tough one for me..the way I see it...which I don't..is I gotta hear it...and if you really want it..sell it to me...roll around on the ground..because that what it takes on a nicked jersey.

And what was the purpose of the rule book? I have a problem with coaches coming out with a rulebook. Go ahead and read the rule..come out and tell me you read the rule..but leave the book in the dugout. By now it's too late anyway. You may have showed them..but the call stands...too late.

Granted they did blow it with the interpreter line of bs....and that's on them...but back on you for not protesting at the right time. You might have even won since these yo-yos didn't make it a judgement call..which we all know cannot be protested.



griff