Does the run count?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The following play was posted in the Softball Umpiring Discussion Forum on the NFHS website. I would like to entertain baseball rulings from NFHS, NCAA, and OBR/MBL (including IBF rules).


Bases loaded with two (2) outs when B4 draws a walk. R1 saunters down the base path from third base towards home plate. R2 runs from second base, tags third base, and makes the turn at third base and takes a few steps toward home plate. F2, who still has not thrown the ball back to F1 sees that R2 has rounded third base and fires the ball to F5 who tags R2 before R2 can return to third base. F5 tag of R2 occurs before R1 has touched home plate.

Assuming that R1 does touch home plate, does the run count.


It is my humble opinion that R1's run counts.


MTD, Sr.

[Fritz]

agreed. Walk entitles BR to 1B and forces everyone else to advance one base without liability to be put out. R2's out after rounding 3B doesn't rescind the award of home to R3. It isn't a force play on a live ball, it is an award situation.

[jkumpire]

Mark,

As I am sure you know, a walk is an award, and all baserunners are awarded the next base. Therefore, the run counts even if R2 does something stupid to get thrown out before R3 scores.

This is not a time or force play because the bases are awarded.

[canadaump6]

I dunno guys. The inning ends when there are 3 outs, and the 3rd out occurred before the runner crossed home plate.

[jdmara]

The run counts

-Josh

[greymule]

In OBR, the run counts if a runner is put out after overrunning a base, even if the out comes before the runner from 3B tags home. A declared out is a different matter. If the BR rounded 1B and passed the runner on 1B before the runner from 3B touched the plate, the run would not score.

I'm not sure about Fed or NCAA, but the answer is probably in the BRD.

I believe that when the run is the winning run, only the runner from 3B and the BR must touch.

The OP question came up this year in NCAA softball. Same ruling as OBR.

I admit that I'm not sure of the following:

Bases loaded, 2 out, ball 4 gets away from F2. R3 scores, R2 misses 3B and also scores. Defense appeals R2's miss of 3B. I think that, since it's a force out, that out would nullify both runs, regardless of the award on the base on balls.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

I dunno guys. The inning ends when there are 3 outs, and the 3rd out occurred before the runner crossed home plate.

This example sounds like a test question...this example is in the PBUC (I think)...I know I've read it somewhere...and if my memory serves me right...the run counts.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

I dunno guys. The inning ends when there are 3 outs, and the 3rd out occurred before the runner crossed home plate.

The specific wording allowing a run is in OBR under "how a run scores" -- one of the comments.

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by greymule

In OBR, the run counts if a runner is put out after overrunning a base, even if the out comes before the runner from 3B tags home. A declared out is a different matter. If the BR rounded 1B and passed the runner on 1B before the runner from 3B touched the plate, the run would not score.

I'm not sure about Fed or NCAA, but the answer is probably in the BRD.

I believe that when the run is the winning run, only the runner from 3B and the BR must touch.

The OP question came up this year in NCAA softball. Same ruling as OBR.

I admit that I'm not sure of the following:

Bases loaded, 2 out, ball 4 gets away from F2. R3 scores, R2 misses 3B and also scores. Defense appeals R2's miss of 3B. I think that, since it's a force out, that out would nullify both runs, regardless of the award on the base on balls.

it's not a force out. force = runner forced to advance by means of batter becoming a runner. while it is true that the batter became a runner, the other runners were "forced" to advance because of an award.

[Four-Oh]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The specific wording allowing a run is in OBR under "how a run scores" -- one of the comments.

Actually, found the comment elsewhere: 7.04(b). The run scores.

It seems to me that this applies as long as the runners touch their awarded advance base; runs could still be nullified by an appealed miss of a base.

Andrew

[greymule]

it's not a force out.

The fact that the base is awarded does not remove the force.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

I dunno guys. The inning ends when there are 3 outs, and the 3rd out occurred before the runner crossed home plate.

Run scores kid. This is not a timing play, but a base award for the runners and batter.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

I dunno guys. The inning ends when there are 3 outs, and the 3rd out occurred before the runner crossed home plate.

I heard this recently on another thread and stated that it was another baseball myth. Then I began to question my own acumen. Why do so many people want to believe this is true and where did it come from?

[bossman72]

First off, I agree the run counts.


However, this play has always confused me. Contrast with this play: Bases loaded, 2 outs, Home run, the BR passes R1 before R3 touches home - this is a time play and no runs score (even though everyone was awarded home).

Can someone tell me the difference here please?

[johnnyg08]

the homerun is not an automatic award. the base on balls is and award of first base and an additional base to those forced to advance. a home run is a free pass to advance and touch all four bases...therefore all baserunning rules apply...that's my thought...other thoughts?