The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 17, 2008, 01:07pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 297
Does the run count?

Runners on 1st and 3rd with two outs. Ground ball to short in the hole. Flips to 2nd baseman covering the base on a bang bang play. Runner from 3rd scores. 2nd baseman drops throw from shortstop. Runner from 1st thinks he is out and starts walking to the 1st base dugout. By "retreating" does this reinstate the force out? If it does, then the run would not count.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 17, 2008, 01:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 4,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto
Runners on 1st and 3rd with two outs. Ground ball to short in the hole. Flips to 2nd baseman covering the base on a bang bang play. Runner from 3rd scores. 2nd baseman drops throw from shortstop. Runner from 1st thinks he is out and starts walking to the 1st base dugout. By "retreating" does this reinstate the force out? If it does, then the run would not count.
What happens to R1 and R2 is irrelevant in this case. If the BR does not advance to 1B, no runs score.

DMR!
__________________
Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 17, 2008, 01:26pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Pace, FL
Posts: 653
Send a message via AIM to argodad
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto
Runners on 1st and 3rd with two outs. Ground ball to short in the hole. Flips to 2nd baseman covering the base on a bang bang play. Runner from 3rd scores. 2nd baseman drops throw from shortstop. Runner from 1st thinks he is out and starts walking to the 1st base dugout. By "retreating" does this reinstate the force out? If it does, then the run would not count.
Did R2 touch 2B, then retreat toward dugout, or did R2 stop before reaching 2B? Or did R2 overrun 2B, then retreat? With or without retouching? Need more info, please.
__________________
Larry
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 17, 2008, 01:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 4,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by argodad
Did R2 touch 2B, then retreat toward dugout, or did R2 stop before reaching 2B? Or did R2 overrun 2B, then retreat? With or without retouching? Need more info, please.
That'll teach me to read closer... I thought he was asking about the BR.

If I'm picturing this correctly, I would say that yes, the force is reinstated as per 8-7-C. If F4 picks up the ball and touches 2B, we've got a force out, and no runs score.
__________________
Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 17, 2008, 01:45pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Southern Ont.
Posts: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto
Runners on 1st and 3rd with two outs. Ground ball to short in the hole. Flips to 2nd baseman covering the base on a bang bang play. Runner from 3rd scores. 2nd baseman drops throw from shortstop. Runner from 1st thinks he is out and starts walking to the 1st base dugout. By "retreating" does this reinstate the force out? If it does, then the run would not count.
If the runner from 1st "R2" stopped before he reached 2nd when he saw the throw heading towards F4 from F6 and turned back towards his dugout thinking he was going to be out and F4 picked up the ball after dropping it and touched 2nd before R2 turned and got to 2nd then you still have a force out at 2nd. no run would score as the 3rd out was via a force.
By "retreating" towards 1st he is not removing or reinstating anything, the force at 2nd still exist.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 17, 2008, 01:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 962
As I read the OP there is a bang/bang play at 2nd so the runner has touched 2nd base. So once they retreat toward 1st they have then reinstated the force on themselves.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 17, 2008, 02:20pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 4,361
If F4 doesn't pick up the ball and tag the runner or base, and R2 simply walks to the dugout, do you count the run?
__________________
Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 17, 2008, 02:39pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp
If F4 doesn't pick up the ball and tag the runner or base, and R2 simply walks to the dugout, do you count the run?
No. You can't have a run score on this force out.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 17, 2008, 03:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,210
Yes, it's not a force out. He's out for abandonment. If on the other hand they make a force out, then I'd disallow it. That's not a force out.
________
The Peak Towers Condominium

Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 06:13pm.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 17, 2008, 03:48pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Southern Ont.
Posts: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by canump
If the runner from 1st "R2" stopped before he reached 2nd when he saw the throw heading towards F4 from F6 and turned back towards his dugout thinking he was going to be out and F4 picked up the ball after dropping it and touched 2nd before R2 turned and got to 2nd then you still have a force out at 2nd. no run would score as the 3rd out was via a force.
By "retreating" towards 1st he is not removing or reinstating anything, the force at 2nd still exist.
As i take the time to read this i notice that it's a bang bang play at 2nd so forget everything i typed earlier. I had a DUH moment there..
Assuming R2 touched 2nd on the play, safe on the bang bang play as F4 dropped the ball, now force is off, R1 scores from 3rd. Force is not reinstated just because R2 retreats to his/her dugout.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 17, 2008, 04:07pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by canump
Assuming R2 touched 2nd on the play, safe on the bang bang play as F4 dropped the ball, now force is off, R1 scores from 3rd. Force is not reinstated just because R2 retreats to his/her dugout.
I think that is the essence of this, which I can't get from the OP.
If R2 had reached 2nd safely and then abandoned afterward, no force out, run counts. If R2 had not reached 2nd safely and F4 or F6 finally made the play, then a force and no run.

A force is reinstated if a safe runner leaves the base and returns toward the previous base. In the OP, that direction is implied by "first base dugout"; but I would have to judge whether R2 was headed for 1st or simply leaving. Of course, the DMR reinstating the force would negate the "run" if the defensd finally made the play. A succeeding BR/R3 would make returning to 1st very unlikely in my mind.

The other Q is whether being out on abandonnment before reaching 2nd is a force out and I would say that if that happened, R2 is out before reaching a base forced to, so no run if third out.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 17, 2008, 04:13pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump
Yes, it's not a force out. He's out for abandonment. If on the other hand they make a force out, then I'd disallow it. That's not a force out.
Speaking ASA

No, a player can only be called out for "abandonment" if they enter DBT. That was not a given in the OP, so I cannot assumed it happened.

Regardless, if the forced runner retreats, the force is reinstated.

If R2 is ruled out on this play, the run does not count.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 17, 2008, 04:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
Speaking ASA

No, a player can only be called out for "abandonment" if they enter DBT. That was not a given in the OP, so I cannot assumed it happened.

Regardless, if the forced runner retreats, the force is reinstated.

If R2 is ruled out on this play, the run does not count.
Right, if they get to dead ball territory, they are not forced out. They were not retreating to a previous base, they were abandoning. In fact, I'd have to be pretty convinced before I'd give the defense the benefit of the doubt on this because it's an unfair advantage to the team on the third base side. (There forces never get reinstated by DMR's.)
________
Vaporizer volcano

Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 06:14pm.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 17, 2008, 04:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 297
Abandonment

This can't be abandonment as the runner never entered DBT. And the way I read 8.7.C. it says if the runner retreats towards the base first occupied then the force is reinstated...or words to that effect. Abondonment refers only to "entering the team area" or "leaving live ball territory".
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 17, 2008, 05:04pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump
Yes, it's not a force out. He's out for abandonment. If on the other hand they make a force out, then I'd disallow it. That's not a force out.
I worded my answer poorly. It's not a force out but the force was still in effect. So no run.

See Irish's answer...I agree with that and he did a much better job of stating it then I did.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2-2 Count Ump Steve Softball 8 Thu Apr 10, 2008 03:46pm
Should the run count? Jesse James Baseball 3 Thu Jul 28, 2005 09:35pm
Should it count? Ref in PA Basketball 25 Tue Dec 07, 2004 01:19pm
ten second count chas Basketball 8 Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:11am
25-second Count with 4-man Ed Hickland Football 10 Mon Aug 23, 2004 04:59pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:52pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1