Does the run count?

[DeputyUICHousto]

Runners on 1st and 3rd with two outs. Ground ball to short in the hole. Flips to 2nd baseman covering the base on a bang bang play. Runner from 3rd scores. 2nd baseman drops throw from shortstop. Runner from 1st thinks he is out and starts walking to the 1st base dugout. By "retreating" does this reinstate the force out? If it does, then the run would not count.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Runners on 1st and 3rd with two outs. Ground ball to short in the hole. Flips to 2nd baseman covering the base on a bang bang play. Runner from 3rd scores. 2nd baseman drops throw from shortstop. Runner from 1st thinks he is out and starts walking to the 1st base dugout. By "retreating" does this reinstate the force out? If it does, then the run would not count.

What happens to R1 and R2 is irrelevant in this case. If the BR does not advance to 1B, no runs score.

DMR!

[argodad]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Runners on 1st and 3rd with two outs. Ground ball to short in the hole. Flips to 2nd baseman covering the base on a bang bang play. Runner from 3rd scores. 2nd baseman drops throw from shortstop. Runner from 1st thinks he is out and starts walking to the 1st base dugout. By "retreating" does this reinstate the force out? If it does, then the run would not count.

Did R2 touch 2B, then retreat toward dugout, or did R2 stop before reaching 2B? Or did R2 overrun 2B, then retreat? With or without retouching? Need more info, please.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by argodad

Did R2 touch 2B, then retreat toward dugout, or did R2 stop before reaching 2B? Or did R2 overrun 2B, then retreat? With or without retouching? Need more info, please.

That'll teach me to read closer... I thought he was asking about the BR.

If I'm picturing this correctly, I would say that yes, the force is reinstated as per 8-7-C. If F4 picks up the ball and touches 2B, we've got a force out, and no runs score.

[canump]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Runners on 1st and 3rd with two outs. Ground ball to short in the hole. Flips to 2nd baseman covering the base on a bang bang play. Runner from 3rd scores. 2nd baseman drops throw from shortstop. Runner from 1st thinks he is out and starts walking to the 1st base dugout. By "retreating" does this reinstate the force out? If it does, then the run would not count.

If the runner from 1st "R2" stopped before he reached 2nd when he saw the throw heading towards F4 from F6 and turned back towards his dugout thinking he was going to be out and F4 picked up the ball after dropping it and touched 2nd before R2 turned and got to 2nd then you still have a force out at 2nd. no run would score as the 3rd out was via a force.
By "retreating" towards 1st he is not removing or reinstating anything, the force at 2nd still exist.

[DaveASA/FED]

As I read the OP there is a bang/bang play at 2nd so the runner has touched 2nd base. So once they retreat toward 1st they have then reinstated the force on themselves.

[NCASAUmp]

If F4 doesn't pick up the ball and tag the runner or base, and R2 simply walks to the dugout, do you count the run?

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

If F4 doesn't pick up the ball and tag the runner or base, and R2 simply walks to the dugout, do you count the run?

No. You can't have a run score on this force out.

[youngump]

Yes, it's not a force out. He's out for abandonment. If on the other hand they make a force out, then I'd disallow it. That's not a force out.
________
The Peak Towers Condominium

[canump]

Originally Posted by canump

If the runner from 1st "R2" stopped before he reached 2nd when he saw the throw heading towards F4 from F6 and turned back towards his dugout thinking he was going to be out and F4 picked up the ball after dropping it and touched 2nd before R2 turned and got to 2nd then you still have a force out at 2nd. no run would score as the 3rd out was via a force.
By "retreating" towards 1st he is not removing or reinstating anything, the force at 2nd still exist.

As i take the time to read this i notice that it's a bang bang play at 2nd so forget everything i typed earlier. I had a DUH moment there..
Assuming R2 touched 2nd on the play, safe on the bang bang play as F4 dropped the ball, now force is off, R1 scores from 3rd. Force is not reinstated just because R2 retreats to his/her dugout.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by canump

Assuming R2 touched 2nd on the play, safe on the bang bang play as F4 dropped the ball, now force is off, R1 scores from 3rd. Force is not reinstated just because R2 retreats to his/her dugout.

I think that is the essence of this, which I can't get from the OP.
If R2 had reached 2nd safely and then abandoned afterward, no force out, run counts. If R2 had not reached 2nd safely and F4 or F6 finally made the play, then a force and no run.

A force is reinstated if a safe runner leaves the base and returns toward the previous base. In the OP, that direction is implied by "first base dugout"; but I would have to judge whether R2 was headed for 1st or simply leaving. Of course, the DMR reinstating the force would negate the "run" if the defensd finally made the play. A succeeding BR/R3 would make returning to 1st very unlikely in my mind.

The other Q is whether being out on abandonnment before reaching 2nd is a force out and I would say that if that happened, R2 is out before reaching a base forced to, so no run if third out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

Yes, it's not a force out. He's out for abandonment. If on the other hand they make a force out, then I'd disallow it. That's not a force out.

Speaking ASA

No, a player can only be called out for "abandonment" if they enter DBT. That was not a given in the OP, so I cannot assumed it happened.

Regardless, if the forced runner retreats, the force is reinstated.

If R2 is ruled out on this play, the run does not count.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA

No, a player can only be called out for "abandonment" if they enter DBT. That was not a given in the OP, so I cannot assumed it happened.

Regardless, if the forced runner retreats, the force is reinstated.

If R2 is ruled out on this play, the run does not count.

Right, if they get to dead ball territory, they are not forced out. They were not retreating to a previous base, they were abandoning. In fact, I'd have to be pretty convinced before I'd give the defense the benefit of the doubt on this because it's an unfair advantage to the team on the third base side. (There forces never get reinstated by DMR's.)
________
Vaporizer volcano

[DeputyUICHousto]

This can't be abandonment as the runner never entered DBT. And the way I read 8.7.C. it says if the runner retreats towards the base first occupied then the force is reinstated...or words to that effect. Abondonment refers only to "entering the team area" or "leaving live ball territory".

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by youngump

Yes, it's not a force out. He's out for abandonment. If on the other hand they make a force out, then I'd disallow it. That's not a force out.

I worded my answer poorly. It's not a force out but the force was still in effect. So no run.

See Irish's answer...I agree with that and he did a much better job of stating it then I did.