Obstruction question

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Gmoore

So you will just honor the missed base appeal and call him out? the coach is going to say that the OBS caused him to miss the base

Honestly, I would call him out on proper appeal.

In my years of playing baseball, I've been obstructed a few times. One situation comes to mind. I was on first base and there was a deep line drive to the right field corner. As I was attempting to round third to go home, the third basemen obstructed my path to touch the base (about 5 foot from the base). I, then, had to make a sweeping arch around the third baseman to touch 3B before heading home (there still was a little bit of contact as he moved directly into me). Although I knew that deviation was going to make the play at home close, I went home regardless because I knew obstruction should be called in this situation.

I was thrown out by a good five feet. Time was called when playing action was complete and I was awarded home on the obstruction. I could have easily just skipped touching 3B and went home but then I've committed an infraction in my eyes. As a runner, I don't believe missing a base is anyone's fault unless the fielder is laying on the base.

Just my opinion

-Josh

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Honestly, I would call him out on proper appeal.

Why are choosing to ignore authoritative interpretations from several sources that contradict your ruling?

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Why are choosing to ignore authoritative interpretations from several sources that contradict your ruling?

I'm assuming you mean the post below, I'll address it briefly. BTW, I'm not trying to be the guy to argue the opposite point to be an a$$. Just don't want to be pointed out to be that guy. Just want to discuss this thoroughly.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

This reminds me of "I strenusouly object" from A Few Good Men. In other words.......so?

But you got me to dig out my BRD.

NCAA: If in the umpire's judgment, obstruction occurred near enough to a base so that it prevented the runner from conveniently touching the bag, a subsequent appeal at the base would be denied. [Fetchiet, 4/20/2001]

OBR: Fitzpatrick agreed with Fetchiet (12/26/01) but added the umpire must be absolutely certain the obstruction kept the runner from the base.

FED: Silent. Carl recommends you treat the same as NCAA, and I agree.

Convenience? When does convenience come into a play? It would be convenient if the bases were 80 feet for me and 110 feet for everyone else. I won't argue if that's the official interpretation of NCAA but I don't necessarily agree with their interpretation. (With that said, I would call it in accordance of the interpretation). But for argument's sake, anytime there is obstruction it is inconvenient to the runner. By nature obstruction is always inconvenient. Does that mean if obstruction occurs close to the base (within 5-8 feet), the runner should just take off to the following base without attempting to touch the base? I would think not.

Can I ask this...If the runner would have stopped at first, in the OP, because they wanted to touch first, would you award the runner second? I would as an umpire.

Secondly, if you had a play that I mentioned in post #16 and the runner made it home successfully, wouldn't you just ignore the obstruction? Or would you stop play after everything was said and done and then call obstruction on the third baseman and award the runner what he already gained I think not. Once the runner gains what he is entitled by the obstruction award, the obstruction is simply ignored...correct?

I would apply that to the OP. Once he has gained the award he is entitled, I would ignore the obstruction. Does anyone follow my logic (whether it's right or wrong)?

Thanks for the great discussion everyone!

-Josh

[Gmoore]

Does the reference say to apply the call to Fed or are you assuming that that is the intent?

For the NFHS umpires it does not tell us to apply NCAA ruling to a Fed Game
and I am not being stubborn or not willing to apply the interp. that way... but for the "elders" here please explain "C" to me please

"c. any runner may advance when awarded a base(s) for an act which occurred before the ball became dead provided any base in (b) above is retouched and all bases are touched in their proper order(8-1-2,8-2-1,8-3,8-3-3d, note)"

I just have a a problem ingoring a rule in Fed about missing a base when the penalty is you will be called out upon appeal,
Just looking for some insight

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Gmoore

Does the reference say to apply the call to Fed or are you assuming that that is the intent?

For the NFHS umpires it does not tell us to apply NCAA ruling to a Fed Game
and I am not being stubborn or not willing to apply the interp. that way... but for the "elders" here please explain "C" to me please

"c. any runner may advance when awarded a base(s) for an act which occurred before the ball became dead provided any base in (b) above is retouched and all bases are touched in their proper order(8-1-2,8-2-1,8-3,8-3-3d, note)"

I just have a a problem ingoring a rule in Fed about missing a base when the penalty is you will be called out upon appeal,
Just looking for some insight

I was assuming that was the intent of that post. I am getting some additional opinions of this situation from my local association. At this point I think I've covered everything I can think of.

-Josh

[umpjong]

Maybe to clarify this play a bit as JJ and I spoke about this play before he posted it.

As the BR veered around F1 in front of and on the home plate side of the bag, BR veered only to avoid the "train wreck". After he veered by F3 he ran by first base not attempting to touch 1st base as he passed it.

With this information, it appears that most agree the runner would be out on appeal. (this was a high school game)

Also, does anyone know the play or plays involved in the ncaa interpretations given. Just curious...........

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Gmoore

Does the reference say to apply the call to Fed or are you assuming that that is the intent?

For the NFHS umpires it does not tell us to apply NCAA ruling to a Fed Game
and I am not being stubborn or not willing to apply the interp. that way... but for the "elders" here please explain "C" to me please

"c. any runner may advance when awarded a base(s) for an act which occurred before the ball became dead provided any base in (b) above is retouched and all bases are touched in their proper order(8-1-2,8-2-1,8-3,8-3-3d, note)"

In FED, if the runner is on or beyond the "next base" when the ball is declared dead, it's too late to go back and correct the error (missed base, or base left too soon). There's an exception for a ball intentionally carried or thrown out of play (intentionally done just to prevent the runner from returning).

So, in the OP, if the ball becomes dead at the end of the play (and it neend't become dead, but it might become dead) with BR standing on second, it's too late for BR to retouch first.

Given umpjong's clarification (BR passed first and *could have* touched it, but didn't), then the obstruction didn't *cause* the missed base, so BR is out on the appeal.

[johnnyg08]

yikes, you might have an ejection here or a coach who screws you on their rating (in MN coaches rate us for FED)...even if you get it right.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

yikes, you might have an ejection here or a coach who screws you on their rating (in MN coaches rate us for FED)...even if you get it right.

Any umpires who cares how a coach will rate them while working a game should pack it in, now.

I had 2.5 visits from a coach yesterday. One on a balk he didn't see, one between innings on a good pickoff move from the other pitcher that he claimed was a "double move" and a balk (it wasn't) and the third on a play at second where the ball hit the heel of F4's glove and fell out and they wanted the out "on the transfer" even though F4's other hand was 2 feet from the glove and the ball never even got in F4's glove. That was a half-visit, cause my partner stopped him before he even came out and told him to get back in the dugout. Seriously, the ball hit the heel of the glove and fell to the ground and there was never a motion to try to get the ball out of the glove, mainly cause it was never in there.

I had a flawless game yesterday and the coach will rate me low. He should rate me highly because I didn't eject him on the second visit, and I could have, had I been so inclined, but instead used game management skills to get him the hell off the field.

If I let myself care about ratings, I'll lose my mind. I'm an above average umpire, according to the coaches ratings. Barely. If I was rated any higher, I'd be wondering what I'm doing wrong. I only care that my ratings are high enough to get me a sectional (level before state tournament) every season. It seems they are, for now.

[Gmoore]

Bob- I agree that the rule states he can't return when the ball is dead if he is on 2nd, But just to continue this are you going to ingore the Obstruction the defense hindered the runner.

[charliej47]

The best I can remember was it is interpretate as the runner can not reach the base with out stopping or returning. we were discussing this and the opinion was if the runner can take "a step" and still get to the base then he is required to otherwise the obstruction prevented him from getting to the base at all.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Gmoore

Bob- I agree that the rule states he can't return when the ball is dead if he is on 2nd, But just to continue this are you going to ingore the Obstruction the defense hindered the runner.

I'm calling it according to my previous answers.

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Any umpires who cares how a coach will rate them while working a game should pack it in, now.

I had 2.5 visits from a coach yesterday. One on a balk he didn't see, one between innings on a good pickoff move from the other pitcher that he claimed was a "double move" and a balk (it wasn't) and the third on a play at second where the ball hit the heel of F4's glove and fell out and they wanted the out "on the transfer" even though F4's other hand was 2 feet from the glove and the ball never even got in F4's glove. That was a half-visit, cause my partner stopped him before he even came out and told him to get back in the dugout. Seriously, the ball hit the heel of the glove and fell to the ground and there was never a motion to try to get the ball out of the glove, mainly cause it was never in there.

I had a flawless game yesterday and the coach will rate me low. He should rate me highly because I didn't eject him on the second visit, and I could have, had I been so inclined, but instead used game management skills to get him the hell off the field.

If I let myself care about ratings, I'll lose my mind. I'm an above average umpire, according to the coaches ratings. Barely. If I was rated any higher, I'd be wondering what I'm doing wrong. I only care that my ratings are high enough to get me a sectional (level before state tournament) every season. It seems they are, for now.

I had a game this week that may rival your low rating.

Play one
Home team gets picked off at first. Rather routine but 1st base coach wanted to make an issue that just because the ball beats the runner doesn't mean he's out. No biggie.

Play two
Next inning home team on defense. Attempted pick off at first. Throw beats R1 but tag does not. "Safe". From the dugout I hear that I called them out on the same play etc etc

Play three

Home team on def. R1 stealing 2nd. throw beats runner but a bit high and F6 misses tag as he swipes. "Safe no tag" I'm sure from 120' it looked like a tag Home team not happy

Play 4

Home team on def.
Attempted pickoff at 2nd. F6 busting to the bag, throws a little behind him but clearly had R2 leaning the wrong way. F6 reaches back gets the ball swipes the tag and I clearly see daylight between glove and R2. "Safe No tag"
Home team clearly not happy.

Play 5

Bottom of 8th 1 out R1 down by one.

Attempted steal, throw to the 1st base side. F6 makes a great play gloving ball while jumping over runner. he gloves it right at the hip of R1 and while airborne applies tag on the backside of R1s hip while R1 is a good foot off base. I give it my best crow hop and bang him "OUT"

1st base coach crosses into fair territory coming towards me letting me know it was a bad call and I appropriately point to him and tell him to get back in his box. I love doing that, it's the same thing I tell my dog at home after he pees on the floor.
HC comes out to ask what I saw and then tells me how disappointed he is in me. "You're better than this, I'm really disappointed in you. There was no tag"

Play 6

Next batter doubles.
After play is relaxed 1st base coach yells at me "The game should be tied, that one's on you"

That's when I ejected him.

What do you think my rating will look like from that team?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by CO ump

I had a game this week that may rival your low rating.


Play 5
"You're better than this, I'm really disappointed in you. There was no tag"

I'd probably say as I was walking away, "Yeah, with your superior vantage point way over there in the dugout, you can tell that. I wish my vision was as good as yours."

I'm a bit burned out with all the stupidity I've seen this season, I gotta tell you.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Maybe I'm off my rocker here but doesn't the runner have the responsibility to legally touch each base?

Of Coarse PROVIDED he is NOT obstructed.

Example: B1 hits a gapper. After rounding first base F4 is BLOCKING second base. The BU signals that's OBS.

The runner having NO access to second goes around the fielder en route to third base.

Defense appeals B1 for missing second base.

Based on your response above you would allow the appeal.

If that's how you rule word would get around and coaches would instruct their fielders that when you are the BU to purposely Obstruct runners AND deny them access to the base because on appeal they would get the out.

Remember the defense is the one who screwed up so FULL benefit should be given to the runner. Generally speaking whenever there is OBS at the Bag area, the fielder by his actions is preventing the runner from touching the base.

Also, this is amateur baseball and MC supercedes OBS so you do not want runners "pushing" shoving etc. players. When I played there was no such thing as a player denying access to a base if you "catch my drift" but that was back then. Today is different.

Pete Booth