Assignor Nightmares

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Originally Posted by Emperor Ump

dash,

There has been precedent set in MiLB and you also cant forget the infamous "Three Blind Mice" ejection...

I'd use the term as liberally as possible.

Nope - Golden League is an Indie & NOT affiliated with MiLB, which is why they got away with a stupid stunt like having the PA clown work an inning as an umpire.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

"Just as a Judge on the bench would not try to assume what is in someone's head, neither should we as umpires." - Ozzy


C'mon Ozzy - you do that every day when judging intent or the lack thereof. It comes with the territory.

It's not the same here, Rich. You know full well (from a coach's point of view), all you have to do is say, "Mario, I was going to appeal anyway!". So how can I stop you from appealing?

Please, I am not trying to be difficult here, Rich. Let's run through this:
I've just ejected the PA Announcer and Pete wants to make an appeal that your runner missed the base. Unless you can come up with something that we can stand firmly on Rich, I am going to allow Pete to appeal your runner!

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

It's not the same here, Rich. You know full well (from a coach's point of view), all you have to do is say, "Mario, I was going to appeal anyway!". So how can I stop you from appealing?

Please, I am not trying to be difficult here, Rich. Let's run through this:
I've just ejected the PA Announcer and Pete wants to make an appeal that your runner missed the base. Unless you can come up with something that we can stand firmly on Rich, I am going to allow Pete to appeal your runner!

Yes I would say "I was going to appeal anyhow".

It may or not be true of course.

If all the team's actions indicate they didn't have a clue until the announcement you should be giving it some thought. I have yet to see a team treat an appeal as an afterthought. They're too anxious for outs and killing runs.

[PeteBooth]

Ozzy I already gave you a rule - The use of Replay.

I realize we were NOT there but from YOUR experience when the defense WANTS to appeal it's obvious. The coach is either screaming or one of the players is screaming.

Re-Read the thread. I am strictly going by what Peter posted. The Defense had NO intention of appealing. if they did they would have appealed IMMEDIATELY. Heck F1 was ready to pitch to the next batter.

Now you have a PA announcer that for all practical Purposes said: According to replay we have indistbutable evidence that the runner missed first base.

The runner is deemed to have touched the base unless PROPERLY appealed.

How can you grant the appeal when the defense had no intentions of appealing until they heard the PA announcer.


Also, do not equate what the PA announcer said to some Parent in the stands. Many times parents are screaming in the stands and the coach simply ignores them anyway.

Pete Booth

[David B]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Ozzy I already gave you a rule - The use of Replay.

I realize we were NOT there but from YOUR experience when the defense WANTS to appeal it's obvious. The coach is either screaming or one of the players is screaming.

Re-Read the thread. I am strictly going by what Peter posted. The Defense had NO intention of appealing. if they did they would have appealed IMMEDIATELY. Heck F1 was ready to pitch to the next batter.

Now you have a PA announcer that for all practical Purposes said: According to replay we have indistbutable evidence that the runner missed first base.

The runner is deemed to have touched the base unless PROPERLY appealed.

How can you grant the appeal when the defense had no intentions of appealing until they heard the PA announcer.


Also, do not equate what the PA announcer said to some Parent in the stands. Many times parents are screaming in the stands and the coach simply ignores them anyway.

Pete Booth

Pete,

I think you're trying to find a way to go against the rules. By rule, if they want to appeal they can. What happens off the field doesn't dictate a change from that.

Now we can eject anyone from the park, (we just get our administrators to handle it all the time with fans, etc. ), but I don't see where the defensive team can be penalized for something they didn't do.

Now if the guys had called the coach in the dugout or something and we had proof of it, but the rule about replay is pretty much clear, guys on the field of play, etc.,

At least that's how I see it,

Thanks
David

My take is this:

If we can eject the announcer because he is "team staff", then it stands to figure that the defensive team in this case did in fact obtain the information illegally. Thus, the announcer is ejected, and you can refuse the appeal because it is not a "legal" appeal.

Seems tidy enough.

The dad in the stand stuff is something totally different. Dad is not "team staff", and we have no jurisdiction over what they do. But we do have jurisdiction over the announcer and his actions! In my opinion, the announcer using replay equipment is no different than the coach himself using it!

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by David B

Pete,

I think you're trying to find a way to go against the rules. By rule, if they want to appeal they can. What happens off the field doesn't dictate a change from that.

I am not going against the rules or using CSFP I am going BY the rule.

As REI said and I agree with him, The PA announcer using replay equipment is the same as if the Coach had used it hence it is against the rules.

The Defense ON THEIR OWN has the right to appeal not from the use of video equipment.

As I stated from my and I bet other's experiences as well, when the Defense wants to appeal it's immediate.

I am going STRICTLY by what Peter wrote. From his description of the events it's apparent that the DEFENSE had no intention of appealing. F1 IN FACT was ready to pitch to the next batter.

Also, Parents from the stands are NOT the same as a PA announcer.

Perhaps with this EVENT a new rule or interpretation will come out.

IMO I am NOT eventing a rule simply to come up with the desired outcome. You cannot use REPLAY equipment

Side Note to Peter

Peter is it possible to have one of those umpires in the game Post either themselves or through you if they Judged that absent the PA announcer the Defense had any intention of appealing. From what you describe it doesn't sound so.

Thanks

Pete Booth

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Ozzy I already gave you a rule - The use of Replay.

I realize we were NOT there but from YOUR experience when the defense WANTS to appeal it's obvious. The coach is either screaming or one of the players is screaming.

Re-Read the thread. I am strictly going by what Peter posted. The Defense had NO intention of appealing. if they did they would have appealed IMMEDIATELY. Heck F1 was ready to pitch to the next batter.

Now you have a PA announcer that for all practical Purposes said: According to replay we have indistbutable evidence that the runner missed first base.

The runner is deemed to have touched the base unless PROPERLY appealed.

How can you grant the appeal when the defense had no intentions of appealing until they heard the PA announcer.


Also, do not equate what the PA announcer said to some Parent in the stands. Many times parents are screaming in the stands and the coach simply ignores them anyway.

Pete Booth

I hear you, Pete! And I understand you would use the "replay" to not allow the appeal. I also am glad that we heard from Rich Ives in that he felt that he would in fact state that he was going to appeal anyway.

So here is where we stand:

• You would deny the appeal and the game would go to protest by the defense.
• I would allow the appeal and allow the game to go to protest by the offense.

So how about we do this? You still have contacts up in MLB. Fire off the OP with our two rulings and protests. I really would like to see what the "Big Guys" would do with this. I'll try to do the same at the clinic I am assisting in this weekend if the weather holds. Let's see what we come up with.

[dash_riprock]

This is a FED rules OP. The penalty for use of replay equipment is spelled out in 3-3-1-f. For the first offense, warn the coach. For the next offense, eject the coach. There is no other penalty.

I can see bending the rules a bit to dump the PA jerk. But if you disallow the appeal because it was obtained "illegally" (and there's nothing in the rules about that), you are going to lose the protest for misapplying the rule.

[PeteBooth]

Ozzy FWIW

This was a FED game so under the OLD FED appeal rule this would have been a non issue. One of the reasons I personally liked the OLD FED rule was for situations such as this.

Under the old FED appeal rule when playing action was over as in the OP the BU would have simply declared the runner out.

All the shenanigans that followed , AD stopping the game, Police escort etc. most likely would not have happened.

There still might have been some EJ's but not the "hoopla" that followed.

Pete Booth

[David B]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Ozzy FWIW

This was a FED game so under the OLD FED appeal rule this would have been a non issue. One of the reasons I personally liked the OLD FED rule was for situations such as this.

Under the old FED appeal rule when playing action was over as in the OP the BU would have simply declared the runner out.

All the shenanigans that followed , AD stopping the game, Police escort etc. most likely would not have happened.

There still might have been some EJ's but not the "hoopla" that followed.

Pete Booth

Pete

As you know I too am still a fan of the old FED rule no matter how dumb some people think it is.

It helped me get the games over with a lot faster too ...

Thanks
david

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Ozzy FWIW

This was a FED game so under the OLD FED appeal rule this would have been a non issue. One of the reasons I personally liked the OLD FED rule was for situations such as this.

Under the old FED appeal rule when playing action was over as in the OP the BU would have simply declared the runner out.

All the shenanigans that followed , AD stopping the game, Police escort etc. most likely would not have happened.

There still might have been some EJ's but not the "hoopla" that followed.

Pete Booth

I like appeals because they usually get screwed up! But in this case, I will agree with you on the old FED rule. I do not like the new FED appeal rule with it's Dead Ball Appeal and "if you screw it up you can re-do it" garbage! If appeals are what they want then use the OBR rules.

"Sure, son, you can appeal"
"That's a balk! No appeal!" or "TIME! Ball's out of play! End of the appeal!"

[ozzy6900]

Hey Pete and Rich,

I found an interesting tid-bit in the MLBUM, Section IV - Conduct and Responsibilities of Umpires:

IV Standards for Removal from the Game.... one of the points reads:

During an argument if a manager, coach, or player makes reference to having observed a video replay that purportedly contradicts the call under dispute, such person is subject to immediate ejection from the game.

So if the manager wants to appeal and admits to hearing the PA Announcer, he too gets ejected too under OBR!

Also for the PA Announcer, the MLBUM says:

2.24 PUBLIC ADDRESS ANNOUNCER
The public address announcer shall make all announcements that are directed by the umpire regarding lineups, Official Baseball Rules, and other pertinent information. The public address announcer shall make such announcements immediately as directed by the umpire. The public and the media should be informed if there is an unusual or technical play or incident during the playing of a game.

In order to avoid confusion, public address announcers are not to announce lineup or substitution changes until the plate umpire signals such to the announcer. Violations of this policy are to be reported to the Office of the Commissioner.

I could find nothing else.

[jkumpire]

Okay, here is my .02:

For everyone who thinks the appeal should be allowed, let me ask:

Would you call the BR safe?

I would really be tempted to do it in this case....

[canadaump6]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Okay, here is my .02:

For everyone who thinks the appeal should be allowed, let me ask:

Would you call the BR safe?

I would really be tempted to do it in this case....

I would be willing to change the call to safe. However I would not call time and confer with my plate partner. I've seen it done before, and it makes the base ump look clueless. If I'm not sure, I'll be pointing to PU and saying something along the lines of "on the bag?". Then I'll make the call whatever the case may be.