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Ahhh, HHH! Nice to see you back, Pete.
I've read a lot of interesting resolutions to your "nightmare" but in reality, there are only two things that need to be done in a case like this.
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When in doubt, bang 'em out! Ozzy |
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Interesting scenario though.
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Rich Ives Different does not equate to wrong |
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There has been precedent set in MiLB and you also cant forget the infamous "Three Blind Mice" ejection... I'd use the term as liberally as possible. |
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Let me add that this would have been a great question to post to Bob Drake - too bad that site was closed and he was "chased" off this site.
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When in doubt, bang 'em out! Ozzy Last edited by ozzy6900; Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:40am. |
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This may just be one of the rare occasions where the rules and the best interest of the game just don't mesh. So when it comes right down to it, what's more important following the letter of the law or maintaining the best interest of the game? Depending on how you answer this question may determine how you rule on this play. |
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Remember that the problems all arose because the OFFENSE made a mistake, namely BR missing 1B. The PA announcer made the next mistake, namely announcing the offense's mistake. Eject the PA announcer to deal with his mistake. Now the defense wants to appeal the missed base. As an umpire, I have no definite knowledge whether they would have appealed without the information from the PA announcer. Since the offense made the initial mistake, I must give the benefit of the doubt to the defense and grant the appeal. Rich, although the the PA announcer illegally announced the missed base, it does not follow that this was how the defense came to know about the missed base: they might first have seen it. Again, the benefit of the doubt must go to the defense here. If, as in the actual case, the O-coach comes out and says to grant the appeal, that just means that he won't be ejected. On this play, anyway...
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Cheers, mb |
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The defense was not even thinking about appealing otherwise instead of F1 getting ready to pitch F3 would be saying "throw me the ball the runner missed the bag" At least the way I am reading it it is APPARENT that absent the announcement from the PA announcer F1 would have simply pitched the ball to B1. You say "show me the rule" There is a rule against the use of REPLAY equipment. The PA announcer said The telecast clearly shows I interpret that to mean that the PA announcer is saying Replay shows that B1 missed first base so you better appeal. In summary: The defense was not going to appeal no matter what the DM / players / Crowd said afterwards otherwise they would have done so. They had plenty of time. Heck F1 was getting ready to pitch and as mentioned if the PA announcer had not opened his mouth F1 would have pitched the ball meaning "off bets off" as far as an appeal goes. Therefore IMO you do have a rule to use for denying the appeal. Also, even if there was no rule, IMO the defense had no intentions of appealing until they heard the PA announcer. This was indeed a tough day for the men in blue but in reading Peter's response I don't know how the EJ's could have been avoided. R2/F1 jawing at each other is not the umpires fault and the behavior of the DM is also not their fault. The DM was trying to pull a "fast one" Pete Booth
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Peter M. Booth |
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I think it's safe to say by the STRICT wording of the OP that the defense had no intention of appealing UNTIL they heard the announcement Also, it was the way the announcement was made. In other words the PA announcer had "indisbutable evidence" that the runner failed to touch first base. Pete Booth
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Peter M. Booth |
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Also, I'd hate to have to write up that game report to send into the state. Would probably take all night! |
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Now you quoted HHH's post where he says that it was apparent that the defense was not going to appeal. It may seem this way but really, how can you be sure? You know that the defensive manager is going to insist that he saw the runner miss the base (he's be a fool if he didn't)! Just as a Judge on the bench would not try to assume what is in someone's head, neither should we as umpires. Mbyron made a good point in that the offense made the first mistake by failing to touch the base. Granted, we assume that the runner has touched the base (even when we see him miss it) but that is how it has to be. If properly appealed, we reverse our call from safe to an out. Finally, to go back to the use of replay, I believe that the rule is referring to the defense using the replay. If this were the case, the appeal would not be allowed at all by rule. But it was the PA announcer that used the replay. Not unlike the father who says "Coach, he missed 1st base, I have it on tape". As long as the defense does not view the replay, they haven't violated the rule. All the manager has to say is "Yeah, I heard the guy but I was going to appeal anyway.". I still say that if the defense puts forth an appeal in this case, we have to honor it.
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When in doubt, bang 'em out! Ozzy |
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Ozzy,
Based on the rules, I think you have the best solution. No matter what we do here someone is likely to protest, so why not make the best decision we can based on the rule book? Take the protest & let the league figure this out. I suspect the end result would be uphold the appeal & a long suspension or termination of at least the PA announcer and perhaps other booth staff. |
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"Just as a Judge on the bench would not try to assume what is in someone's head, neither should we as umpires." - Ozzy
C'mon Ozzy - you do that every day when judging intent or the lack thereof. It comes with the territory.
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Rich Ives Different does not equate to wrong |
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I don't think I've ever been suprised by an appeal. You can usually hear the players and coaches talking about it as soon as playing action stops. Also, keep in mind, with a dead ball appeal there's no need for the pitcher to throw over to the base - he, or anyone else can simply request the appeal.
-------------------- FED 8-2 Penalty (clipped) A dead-ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with or without the ball by verbally stating that the runner missed the base or left the base too early. -------------------- I wasn't there but it seems pretty obvious from the OP that there was no intent for the defense to appeal the missed base until the PA announcer chimed in. For that matter you might conclude that the PA announcer only added his 2 cents because he felt his team had missed something. There must have been some time elapsed if the announcer had a chance to view the replay. |
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