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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 29, 2008, 11:16am
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Ahhh, HHH! Nice to see you back, Pete.

I've read a lot of interesting resolutions to your "nightmare" but in reality, there are only two things that need to be done in a case like this.
  1. The umpires immediatly call TIME and eject the PA announcer. This is covered in all three rule sets and needs to be done immediatly.
  2. If the defense attempts to appeal the missed base, this must be honered.
Now hold on all of you.....! Would you deny an appeal if a parent hollered about the missed base and the defense listened? Of course not! You will have a problem with the offensive coach but you will have to deal with that. It is a valid appeal so you must act on it. Of course, you might get a balk out it because you killed the ball to eject the PA announcer so that may be a plus.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 29, 2008, 11:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzy6900
Ahhh, HHH! Nice to see you back, Pete.

I've read a lot of interesting resolutions to your "nightmare" but in reality, there are only two things that need to be done in a case like this.
  1. The umpires immediatly call TIME and eject the PA announcer. This is covered in all three rule sets and needs to be done immediatly.
  2. If the defense attempts to appeal the missed base, this must be honered.
Now hold on all of you.....! Would you deny an appeal if a parent hollered about the missed base and the defense listened? Of course not! You will have a problem with the offensive coach but you will have to deal with that. It is a valid appeal so you must act on it. Of course, you might get a balk out it because you killed the ball to eject the PA announcer so that may be a plus.
Would you not consider that the info was gained illegally by a "team attendant"?


Interesting scenario though.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 29, 2008, 11:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dash_riprock
Unless the PA announcer is considered an "attendant or other bench personnel" (I think that is a stretch), 3-3-1-f would not apply. He is not a game official either (the umpires are), so 10-1-5 has not been violated. ...

I do like your style Rich. If there is a way to dump the PA announcer, I'm all for it.
dash,

There has been precedent set in MiLB and you also cant forget the infamous "Three Blind Mice" ejection...

I'd use the term as liberally as possible.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 29, 2008, 11:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives
Would you not consider that the info was gained illegally by a "team attendant"?


Interesting scenario though.
No Rich, because I do not know what is in the minds of the defense. What if they were already prepared to make the appeal? I would not know that. So I deal with the problem (get rid of the PA announcer), then deal with the appeal, then deal with the offensive coach. Now if you (or anyone else) can show me something from a casebook or the MLBUM to negate that appeal, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But to just say "it is wrong" is incorrect.

Let me add that this would have been a great question to post to Bob Drake - too bad that site was closed and he was "chased" off this site.
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Last edited by ozzy6900; Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:40am.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 29, 2008, 12:25pm
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Rob Drake might have been chased out, but Bob might still be here! :-)
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 29, 2008, 12:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzy6900
No Rich, because I do not know what is in the minds of the defense. What if they were already prepared to make the appeal? I would not know that. So I deal with the problem (get rid of the PA announcer), then deal with the appeal, then deal with the offensive coach. Now if you (or anyone else) can show me something from a casebook or the MLBUM to negate that appeal, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But to just say "it is wrong" is incorrect.

Let me add that this would have been a great question to post to Bob Drake - too bad that site was closed and he was "chased" off this site.


This may just be one of the rare occasions where the rules and the best interest of the game just don't mesh.

So when it comes right down to it, what's more important
following the letter of the law or maintaining the best interest of the game?

Depending on how you answer this question may determine how you rule on this play.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 29, 2008, 01:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CO ump
So when it comes right down to it, what's more important following the letter of the law or maintaining the best interest of the game?
This is not a useful question. The rules do not address this situation or any like it, so following "the letter of the law" is not an option.

Remember that the problems all arose because the OFFENSE made a mistake, namely BR missing 1B.

The PA announcer made the next mistake, namely announcing the offense's mistake. Eject the PA announcer to deal with his mistake.

Now the defense wants to appeal the missed base. As an umpire, I have no definite knowledge whether they would have appealed without the information from the PA announcer. Since the offense made the initial mistake, I must give the benefit of the doubt to the defense and grant the appeal.

Rich, although the the PA announcer illegally announced the missed base, it does not follow that this was how the defense came to know about the missed base: they might first have seen it. Again, the benefit of the doubt must go to the defense here.

If, as in the actual case, the O-coach comes out and says to grant the appeal, that just means that he won't be ejected. On this play, anyway...
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 29, 2008, 01:22pm
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzy6900
No Rich, because I do not know what is in the minds of the defense. What if they were already prepared to make the appeal? I would not know that. So I deal with the problem (get rid of the PA announcer), then deal with the appeal, then deal with the offensive coach. Now if you (or anyone else) can show me something from a casebook or the MLBUM to negate that appeal, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But to just say "it is wrong" is incorrect.

Let me add that this would have been a great question to post to Bob Drake - too bad that site was closed and he was "chased" off this site.
Ozzy from the OP

Quote:
he notices that the BR missed 1st base, but no one else seems to have noticed. The BU nonchalantly takes position B. The pitcher gets ready to pitch and the home team announcer says over the PA system: "The telecast clearly shows that BR missed 1st base so you might want to appeal.
I have underlined the relevant passage from the OP

The defense was not even thinking about appealing otherwise instead of F1 getting ready to pitch F3 would be saying "throw me the ball the runner missed the bag"

At least the way I am reading it it is APPARENT that absent the announcement from the PA announcer F1 would have simply pitched the ball to B1.

You say "show me the rule"

There is a rule against the use of REPLAY equipment. The PA announcer said
The telecast clearly shows I interpret that to mean that the PA announcer is saying Replay shows that B1 missed first base so you better appeal.

In summary: The defense was not going to appeal no matter what the DM / players / Crowd said afterwards otherwise they would have done so. They had plenty of time. Heck F1 was getting ready to pitch and as mentioned if the PA announcer had not opened his mouth F1 would have pitched the ball meaning "off bets off" as far as an appeal goes.

Therefore IMO you do have a rule to use for denying the appeal. Also, even if there was no rule, IMO the defense had no intentions of appealing until they heard the PA announcer.

This was indeed a tough day for the men in blue but in reading Peter's response I don't know how the EJ's could have been avoided. R2/F1 jawing at each other is not the umpires fault and the behavior of the DM is also not their fault. The DM was trying to pull a "fast one"

Pete Booth
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 29, 2008, 01:30pm
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron
This is not a useful question. The rules do not address this situation or any like it, so following "the letter of the law" is not an option.

Remember that the problems all arose because the OFFENSE made a mistake, namely BR missing 1B.
Agreed but according to the rules the runner has deemed to have Touched the base unless properly appealed.

Quote:
Now the defense wants to appeal the missed base. As an umpire, I have no definite knowledge whether they would have appealed without the information from the PA announcer.
You have plenty of knowledge. F1 was on the mound ready to pitch. If the defense was going to appeal they had plenty of time. IMO, from most of our experiences when the defense wants to appeal they do so immediately without hesitation. You hear a player or coach say "he missed first"
I think it's safe to say by the STRICT wording of the OP that the defense had no intention of appealing UNTIL they heard the announcement

Also, it was the way the announcement was made. In other words the PA announcer had "indisbutable evidence" that the runner failed to touch first base.

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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 29, 2008, 05:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by His High Holiness
L

The offensive manager calmly approached the umpires and asked to talk privately... Anyway, the offensive manager told the umpires that he had seen the missed base and asked them to call R2 out so they could move on... The offensive manager was on probation for previous problems with his behavior and that of his players and he could not afford any more negative situations. He was not sure if he could survive the ejection of R2 and did not want any more fuel on the fire. He asked for a minute with his players in the dugout to prepare them before the umpires announced their decision.
I know that most on this board hate to give the rats any credit, but this manager deserves some credit. Granted, he was on probation for previous problems, but that normally wouldn't stop a manager from going off especially in a situation like this. The offensive manager clearly handled himself better than anyone from the home team and should be commended for his actions.

Also, I'd hate to have to write up that game report to send into the state. Would probably take all night!
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 29, 2008, 05:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyg08
Rob Drake might have been chased out, but Bob might still be here! :-)
Talk about a Freudian slip!
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 29, 2008, 06:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteBooth
Ozzy from the OP



I have underlined the relevant passage from the OP

The defense was not even thinking about appealing otherwise instead of F1 getting ready to pitch F3 would be saying "throw me the ball the runner missed the bag"

At least the way I am reading it it is APPARENT that absent the announcement from the PA announcer F1 would have simply pitched the ball to B1.

You say "show me the rule"

There is a rule against the use of REPLAY equipment. The PA announcer said
The telecast clearly shows I interpret that to mean that the PA announcer is saying Replay shows that B1 missed first base so you better appeal.

In summary: The defense was not going to appeal no matter what the DM / players / Crowd said afterwards otherwise they would have done so. They had plenty of time. Heck F1 was getting ready to pitch and as mentioned if the PA announcer had not opened his mouth F1 would have pitched the ball meaning "off bets off" as far as an appeal goes.

Therefore IMO you do have a rule to use for denying the appeal. Also, even if there was no rule, IMO the defense had no intentions of appealing until they heard the PA announcer.

This was indeed a tough day for the men in blue but in reading Peter's response I don't know how the EJ's could have been avoided. R2/F1 jawing at each other is not the umpires fault and the behavior of the DM is also not their fault. The DM was trying to pull a "fast one"

Pete Booth
Pete, you make a good point about the PA announcer using a replay of some sort. I have no argument there. That part of the equation has been removed by ejecting the PA announcer first. It is very important to make this the second move (the first is to call TIME) as this shows the announcer's input into the game is a complete violation and is dealt with on the spot.

Now you quoted HHH's post where he says that it was apparent that the defense was not going to appeal. It may seem this way but really, how can you be sure? You know that the defensive manager is going to insist that he saw the runner miss the base (he's be a fool if he didn't)! Just as a Judge on the bench would not try to assume what is in someone's head, neither should we as umpires.

Mbyron made a good point in that the offense made the first mistake by failing to touch the base. Granted, we assume that the runner has touched the base (even when we see him miss it) but that is how it has to be. If properly appealed, we reverse our call from safe to an out.

Finally, to go back to the use of replay, I believe that the rule is referring to the defense using the replay. If this were the case, the appeal would not be allowed at all by rule. But it was the PA announcer that used the replay. Not unlike the father who says "Coach, he missed 1st base, I have it on tape". As long as the defense does not view the replay, they haven't violated the rule. All the manager has to say is "Yeah, I heard the guy but I was going to appeal anyway.".

I still say that if the defense puts forth an appeal in this case, we have to honor it.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 29, 2008, 07:53pm
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Ozzy,

Based on the rules, I think you have the best solution. No matter what we do here someone is likely to protest, so why not make the best decision we can based on the rule book?

Take the protest & let the league figure this out. I suspect the end result would be uphold the appeal & a long suspension or termination of at least the PA announcer and perhaps other booth staff.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 29, 2008, 09:40pm
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"Just as a Judge on the bench would not try to assume what is in someone's head, neither should we as umpires." - Ozzy


C'mon Ozzy - you do that every day when judging intent or the lack thereof. It comes with the territory.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 29, 2008, 10:12pm
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I don't think I've ever been suprised by an appeal. You can usually hear the players and coaches talking about it as soon as playing action stops. Also, keep in mind, with a dead ball appeal there's no need for the pitcher to throw over to the base - he, or anyone else can simply request the appeal.

--------------------
FED 8-2 Penalty

(clipped)
A dead-ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with or without the ball by verbally stating that the runner missed the base or left the base too early.
--------------------

I wasn't there but it seems pretty obvious from the OP that there was no intent for the defense to appeal the missed base until the PA announcer chimed in. For that matter you might conclude that the PA announcer only added his 2 cents because he felt his team had missed something. There must have been some time elapsed if the announcer had a chance to view the replay.
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