Runner attempts to advance during dead ball

[bigwes68]

Haven't posted in a long time because I'm not officiating this year, but I saw a play in a game today that intrigued me because I've never seen it before.

NCAA. R1, R2, 1 out. Home manager requests time, comes to plate umpire to make what ends up being a triple switch (not really relevant to play, but also rare). While all this is going on and while new F1 is taking warmup tosses, R2 comes over to talk to third base coach, but nonchalantly stands on third while doing it. Play resumes, R2 remains on third. Before a pitch is thrown, home manager comes out to point out that runner is out of position, also has a few choice words for visiting manager (needless to say, R2 would have definitely got one in his ear if he had come up again; this was the 8th inning). Umpires make R2 return to 2B, play continues without further incident.

Correct ruling? What happens if a pitch is thrown or if F1 steps off and throws to 3B (or 2B)? Should runner be ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct (I believe NCAA softball has a rule regarding this very situation, don't know if baseball has a similar rule).

(Home manager told me after the game that he asked all three umpires what the proper ruling was and that he got three different answers.)

[socalblue1]

R2 most defiantly would NOT have got one in his ear because he would no longer be in the game...

IMO Proper ruling:

1. Need new R2 and 3B coach. Should HC even think of whining he would be gone too. I have no patience for this type of BS, esp at the college level.

2. New R2, new 3B coach. No other changes - no place in the rules to get an out here.

Q - Was U3 sleeping or what? He only has two jobs here - help PU keep track of the number of warm up pitches (If PU is occupied with other things) and make sure base runner(s) return to the proper base.

[UMP25]

You'd better be able to justify ejecting these two under NCAA and OBR (I don't do FED ball so won't comment on that). Is what R2 did lame? Probably. But I doubt I'd outright eject R2 or the coach. I try to avoid EJs as much as possible. I'd most likely call time and tell R2 in a somewhat scolding but not irate tone something like, "All right, get back to second where you belong...".

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by UMP25

You'd better be able to justify ejecting these two under NCAA and OBR (I don't do FED ball so won't comment on that). Is what R2 did lame? Probably. But I doubt I'd outright eject R2 or the coach. I try to avoid EJs as much as possible. I'd most likely call time and tell R2 in a somewhat scolding but not irate tone something like, "All right, get back to second where you belong...".

Justification? How about FLAGRANT UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT. You cheat, you're history.

Bob

[UES]

Originally Posted by UMP25

You'd better be able to justify ejecting these two under NCAA and OBR (I don't do FED ball so won't comment on that). Is what R2 did lame? Probably. But I doubt I'd outright eject R2 or the coach. I try to avoid EJs as much as possible. I'd most likely call time and tell R2 in a somewhat scolding but not irate tone something like, "All right, get back to second where you belong...".

I agree with Ump25 - as bushleague as it is, I would just send the runner back to second and probably get in his grill a little bit. I do make note of the base runners during pitching changes because the runners may switch bases (ie have the faster runner go to second base and the slower runner go to first base). As a base umpire, after I go get the relief pitcher out of the bull pen, I flash the number of the incoming pitcher to my plate umpire and then make a mental note of what runners on where on the bases. If I'm really feeling motivated, I may even keep track of the warm up pitches in case my partners busy recording the change or talking with the coach. If that's the case, I'll just flash the number four to my partner so he know's four warm up pitches have been already thrown and/or the relief pitcher has four more left. Just goes to show that you never stop umpiring, even when there's nothing going on

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UES

Just goes to show that you never stop umpiring, even when there's nothing going on

I agree with the first part, but take it to mean that during a game there's always something going on for the attentive.

I'm not (yet) NCAA, but I can't imagine that NCAA would condone this kind of thing. No one plausibly claims this was an accident, which means that it's blatant cheating. It certainly gets an EJ in FED.

So some of you would EJ a player for calling you horseshït, but not for this?

[TussAgee11]

Any umpire who doesn't EJ 3rd base coach and R2 doesn't have a backbone in my opinion.

I try to stay away from EJ's too, but sometimes you have to take care of business. Both those participants CHEATED. That needs to be penalized more than just fixing what they tried to cheat with.

And as PU, I'm cutting off defensive manager. "Skip, I'll take care of it, I need you back to your dugout so I can though, and I can't have you yelling across the field at him. Let me do that for you".

You leave R2 in the game and he's getting the next one in his ear. Then we have a war. You still not going to eject anyone then?

Throw these clowns out.

[TussAgee11]

Let me add this. All of what I just said applies if no umpire noticed the situation.

If I was U3 I'm stepping in as the pitcher is ready and saying "ok, back to second".

Nobody knows what they tried to do and everyone gets to stay. Heck, I'd probably just assume there were some last second instructions.

But if I KNEW that they were trying to cheat, they'd be gone. But I, ideally, wouldn't let it get to the point where I could know that.

[bossman72]

My tossin' finger would get some good work on this play!

Good bye R2 and most likely 3B coach

[johnnyg08]

at many levels, the coach knows darn well what they're doing...it's like the people who ask for a warning for not coming to a "stop" as the runner gets thrown out at 2B...the pitcher knew darn well what he was doing.

[RPatrino]

If no umpire notices this 'situation' then they don't deserve to be on the field. This is preventive umpiring at it's 'finest'. If you have to EJ on this situation because the crew didn't notice it, and let it happen, then I would be embarrased to be the crew working this game.

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

If no umpire notices this 'situation' then they don't deserve to be on the field. This is preventive umpiring at it's 'finest'. If you have to EJ on this situation because the crew didn't notice it, and let it happen, then I would be embarrassed to be the crew working this game.

Agree 100%. Base umpire(s) sleeping here or what? There should be no excuse for this happening!

However, if it did happen then I'm going to have an ejection or three ...

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

Justification? How about FLAGRANT UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT. You cheat, you're history.

Bob

I suppose if you're a frickin' Little League umpire, sure. But you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. If tossing guys for stuff like this gives you jollies, fine. I'd prefer to avoid the EJ and still take care of the situation, thereby avoiding a huge mess a trigger-happy EJ is likely to cause.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Any umpire who doesn't EJ 3rd base coach and R2 doesn't have a backbone in my opinion.

I try to stay away from EJ's too, but sometimes you have to take care of business. Both those participants CHEATED. That needs to be penalized more than just fixing what they tried to cheat with.

Wow. The naivete in this thread is quite amazing. So you're gonna eject people for cheating, huh? (Earth to Tuss: Players often cheat all the time and get away with it.) Then I can't wait to see the next time a guy gets beaned by the pitcher who is simply "sending a message" to a batter who showed him up in his previous bat home run. I'd bet you'd toss the pitcher in a heartbeat. The game takes care of itself at times.

I'll share this truth with y'all: I actually had a runner do what is stated in this thread. The runner on a foul advanced to the next base and stayed there. The third base coach even said, loud enough for me to hear, "Just stay here."

I was on the bases when my partner was about to point the ball back into play. I put my hands up and said, "Hold on!" As I looked at R2 standing on third, with a stern look I yelled toward him, "Very funny. Now get back to second where you belong."

Both the runner and the coach knew I wasn't happy. I'm sure they probably even realized I could have ejected them, but I didn't. And I haven't lost one ounce of respect since then.

[SAump]

Does the rulebook suggest a penalty be involked in this case? A player warning/ejection may be merited for this unsportsmanlike act, under rule 3-3g-4, along with bench restriction or ejection of coaches. Yet our solution may be as simple as fix it and move on. Need further guidance from someone w/ more info/experience to determine the actual nature of this offense.

Posted older link from 2005 baseball side of website below. 1/2 call for DP, 1/2 call to fix it.
Base Running Error?
Posted similar link from 2004 softball side of website below. Calls for DP.
What's the reasoning?
Posted older link from 2003 softball side of website below. Calls for DP and provides {2003} FED softball case ruling, situation 10.
switching of bases
Note all 3 links above involve 2 runners switching bases, not one advancing a base, during a dead ball.