Runner attempts to advance during dead ball

[bigwes68]

Haven't posted in a long time because I'm not officiating this year, but I saw a play in a game today that intrigued me because I've never seen it before.

NCAA. R1, R2, 1 out. Home manager requests time, comes to plate umpire to make what ends up being a triple switch (not really relevant to play, but also rare). While all this is going on and while new F1 is taking warmup tosses, R2 comes over to talk to third base coach, but nonchalantly stands on third while doing it. Play resumes, R2 remains on third. Before a pitch is thrown, home manager comes out to point out that runner is out of position, also has a few choice words for visiting manager (needless to say, R2 would have definitely got one in his ear if he had come up again; this was the 8th inning). Umpires make R2 return to 2B, play continues without further incident.

Correct ruling? What happens if a pitch is thrown or if F1 steps off and throws to 3B (or 2B)? Should runner be ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct (I believe NCAA softball has a rule regarding this very situation, don't know if baseball has a similar rule).

(Home manager told me after the game that he asked all three umpires what the proper ruling was and that he got three different answers.)

[socalblue1]

R2 most defiantly would NOT have got one in his ear because he would no longer be in the game...

IMO Proper ruling:

1. Need new R2 and 3B coach. Should HC even think of whining he would be gone too. I have no patience for this type of BS, esp at the college level.

2. New R2, new 3B coach. No other changes - no place in the rules to get an out here.

Q - Was U3 sleeping or what? He only has two jobs here - help PU keep track of the number of warm up pitches (If PU is occupied with other things) and make sure base runner(s) return to the proper base.

[UMP25]

You'd better be able to justify ejecting these two under NCAA and OBR (I don't do FED ball so won't comment on that). Is what R2 did lame? Probably. But I doubt I'd outright eject R2 or the coach. I try to avoid EJs as much as possible. I'd most likely call time and tell R2 in a somewhat scolding but not irate tone something like, "All right, get back to second where you belong...".

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by UMP25

You'd better be able to justify ejecting these two under NCAA and OBR (I don't do FED ball so won't comment on that). Is what R2 did lame? Probably. But I doubt I'd outright eject R2 or the coach. I try to avoid EJs as much as possible. I'd most likely call time and tell R2 in a somewhat scolding but not irate tone something like, "All right, get back to second where you belong...".

Justification? How about FLAGRANT UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT. You cheat, you're history.

Bob

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

Justification? How about FLAGRANT UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT. You cheat, you're history.

Bob

I suppose if you're a frickin' Little League umpire, sure. But you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. If tossing guys for stuff like this gives you jollies, fine. I'd prefer to avoid the EJ and still take care of the situation, thereby avoiding a huge mess a trigger-happy EJ is likely to cause.

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by UMP25

I suppose if you're a frickin' Little League umpire, sure. But you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. If tossing guys for stuff like this gives you jollies, fine. I'd prefer to avoid the EJ and still take care of the situation, thereby avoiding a huge mess a trigger-happy EJ is likely to cause.

'Trigger-happy' my rosy red rump. It's unsportsmanlike at ANY level. Avoid the ejection because you have no cojones, but it's still a gross violation, no matter what YOU think. If you were the BU in this situation, and didn't have the guts to get rid of the runner and the coach, I would never work with you again. I want partners who punish situations like this. And think (if you can) about this. If you're the base ump, they just made a fool out of you.

Bob

[UES]

Originally Posted by UMP25

You'd better be able to justify ejecting these two under NCAA and OBR (I don't do FED ball so won't comment on that). Is what R2 did lame? Probably. But I doubt I'd outright eject R2 or the coach. I try to avoid EJs as much as possible. I'd most likely call time and tell R2 in a somewhat scolding but not irate tone something like, "All right, get back to second where you belong...".

I agree with Ump25 - as bushleague as it is, I would just send the runner back to second and probably get in his grill a little bit. I do make note of the base runners during pitching changes because the runners may switch bases (ie have the faster runner go to second base and the slower runner go to first base). As a base umpire, after I go get the relief pitcher out of the bull pen, I flash the number of the incoming pitcher to my plate umpire and then make a mental note of what runners on where on the bases. If I'm really feeling motivated, I may even keep track of the warm up pitches in case my partners busy recording the change or talking with the coach. If that's the case, I'll just flash the number four to my partner so he know's four warm up pitches have been already thrown and/or the relief pitcher has four more left. Just goes to show that you never stop umpiring, even when there's nothing going on

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UES

Just goes to show that you never stop umpiring, even when there's nothing going on

I agree with the first part, but take it to mean that during a game there's always something going on for the attentive.

I'm not (yet) NCAA, but I can't imagine that NCAA would condone this kind of thing. No one plausibly claims this was an accident, which means that it's blatant cheating. It certainly gets an EJ in FED.

So some of you would EJ a player for calling you horseshït, but not for this?

[TussAgee11]

Any umpire who doesn't EJ 3rd base coach and R2 doesn't have a backbone in my opinion.

I try to stay away from EJ's too, but sometimes you have to take care of business. Both those participants CHEATED. That needs to be penalized more than just fixing what they tried to cheat with.

And as PU, I'm cutting off defensive manager. "Skip, I'll take care of it, I need you back to your dugout so I can though, and I can't have you yelling across the field at him. Let me do that for you".

You leave R2 in the game and he's getting the next one in his ear. Then we have a war. You still not going to eject anyone then?

Throw these clowns out.

[TussAgee11]

Let me add this. All of what I just said applies if no umpire noticed the situation.

If I was U3 I'm stepping in as the pitcher is ready and saying "ok, back to second".

Nobody knows what they tried to do and everyone gets to stay. Heck, I'd probably just assume there were some last second instructions.

But if I KNEW that they were trying to cheat, they'd be gone. But I, ideally, wouldn't let it get to the point where I could know that.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by bigwes68

Haven't posted in a long time because I'm not officiating this year, but I saw a play in a game today that intrigued me because I've never seen it before.

NCAA. R1, R2, 1 out. Home manager requests time, comes to plate umpire to make what ends up being a triple switch (not really relevant to play, but also rare). While all this is going on and while new F1 is taking warmup tosses, R2 comes over to talk to third base coach, but nonchalantly stands on third while doing it. Play resumes, R2 remains on third. Before a pitch is thrown, home manager comes out to point out that runner is out of position, also has a few choice words for visiting manager (needless to say, R2 would have definitely got one in his ear if he had come up again; this was the 8th inning). Umpires make R2 return to 2B, play continues without further incident.

Correct ruling? What happens if a pitch is thrown or if F1 steps off and throws to 3B (or 2B)? Should runner be ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct (I believe NCAA softball has a rule regarding this very situation, don't know if baseball has a similar rule).

(Home manager told me after the game that he asked all three umpires what the proper ruling was and that he got three different answers.)

Somehow, fixing it seems to fall short, while an ejection may be over the top.

If the defense correctly points to a baserunning infraction, why not allow a proper appeal and declare R2(3) out, using a justification similar to BOO?

If a pitch is thrown, then why not on appeal negate any resulting action {cancel run} and maybe add an out {R3}, using a justification similar to illegal slide or MC or missed base?

Now if a 2nd pitch is made, then that may finally legalize R3's SB and may allow a run by the offense.

[TussAgee11]

Ump25 - if I was U3 here I would have done my preventative umpiring and stepped in getting the runner back to second as the apposing coach made his way back into his dugout.

Had I not realized it because I was scoping out the hot mom on the fence, and I missed my preventative umpiring, my left arm is going to get a workout. No ifs ands or butts.

Would I be embarrassed I didn't do my job in the first place? Yes.

Does that mean everybody gets off the hook? No.

And you suggesting that you wouldn't toss a pitcher who you thought intentionally hit a batter is just ludicrous. Grow a pair and do your job. Who cares what $hithouse it starts. Its your job! If we can do our job and avoid one, than fine. But if in doing our job we piss some off, part of the territory. We shouldn't shy away from a good ole fashion circus if necessary.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

And you suggesting that you wouldn't toss a pitcher who you thought intentionally hit a batter is just ludicrous. Grow a pair and do your job.

Puh-leeze! I've tossed my share of pitchers over the years. I'm known as an umpire who doesn't tolerate bullschit. I'm also one who understands the game takes care of itself. If I see a runner sliding in with spikes high, I pretty much know that odds are greater said runner is going to hear a little chin music next time up.

[bob jenkins]

I think we'll just have to A2D on this.

[jicecone]

Lets get this straight.

We want to eject players at this level because of our lack of competence.

If your even re-starting the game without making sure the runners are in their proper position, you probably should eject yourself and hand back your schedule because you don't belong at the level to begin with.

AWARENESS

Anyone can toss people from ballgames wether its your first or last game.

Good officials understand when to.