Overriding Your Partner??

[cshs81]

Disclaimer: I'm not an umpire.

2 man crew. Field umpire ruled that F3 pulled his foot off the base and called the runner safe. Coach complains that it was a bad call. As a result of this complaining, the home plate umpire calls his partner into a private discussion. They then changed the call to an out call (which was the right call from my vantage point).

Is this a proper way to handle this? Or should the home plate ump wait until being asked for help by his partner?

Are there any situations where the non-calling umpire initiates the conversation with his partner?

Thanks

[rngrck]

This is a judgement call and wouldn't appreciate PU calling me in to discuss unless I as the BU requested it. The only time I confer with my partner is over a rule interpretation or when asked for help. Lets call the play, calm the coach down and move on.

[cshs81]

Originally Posted by rngrck

This is a judgement call and wouldn't appreciate PU calling me in to discuss unless I as the BU requested it. The only time I confer with my partner is over a rule interpretation or when asked for help. Lets call the play, calm the coach down and move on.

I assumed that would be how most umpires would handle it. I felt bad for the field ump having his partner questioning his call and caving into the pressure from the coach and fans.

I can't imagine what the conversation was between the 2 umps.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by cshs81

Are there any situations where the non-calling umpire initiates the conversation with his partner?

Thanks

Yes -- rules, obvious ball on the ground (during a tag), etc. Some of it will depend on the relationship between the two umpires (is one much more experienced than the other? Is there a formal crew chief?)

[PeteBooth]

Thanks

We have MLB to thank for partners over turning one another without being asked.

The call BELONGS to the BU.

The BU has 2 choices

1. Stick with his call or
2. Check with his partner

HOWEVER,

The PU should not chime in unless he asked by his partner NOT the coach.

To me this is no different then a check swing.

F1, F2 the coach the Pope the President of the US can point to me all they want. It's not unitl my Partner points to me that I will give a signal one way or the other.

Now as Bob said depedning upon your partner etc. You could over-ride your partners call in certain situations like the ball being on the ground but that should be discussed in Pre-game

IMO, Arbritraily over-ruling your partner without being asked is not a good thing. Also, whose to say you are right.

Pete Booth

[UMP25]

If done correctly, this entire play can be handled quite easily and without argument by simply changing the umpire and not the call. I've advocated this mechanic for years, and while I get numerous NCAA umpires who disagree with me--some vehemently--I have yet to have an argument in such situations. They all maintain the original call by the BU must be made, then "time" called, then a discussion, then a reversal. I, on the other hand, and I admit it's simply my own recommendation, is to have the BU before he makes a call, point to his plate partner and ask, "Bill, did he have the base?" (or something to that effect). The PU then gives his answer, and if F3's off the base, the PU can even give the off the base signal while exclaiming, "No, off the base." (or similar statement)

I've had this play twice this year, both times with me working the dish. Each time my partner--two different guys--tried to get a good look but was screened, so each gentleman pointed to me and yelled, "Randy, did he have the base?" I gave my response, my BU partner immediately follows up with the final call, and no one came out to argue. It was fluid and methodical and accomplished the same thing as the old umpire's committee meeting.

[CO ump]

Many times partners will have some sign they give to their partner in certain situations to let them know they may have pertinent information that may be useful.
When given this sign the calling ump may or may not choose to get it or use it.
For a PU to force a conference on a judgement call made by U1 is uncalled for and absolutely inappropriate.

Another disturbing part of the OP is this:
It's one thing to be in B or C position, miss a pulled foot and feel a need to ask PU for help.
It's quite another to rule and signal pulled foot, make a safe call and then change the call.
You either saw the pulled foot or you didn't. If you indicate pulled foot then you darn well have better seen the pulled foot. If you saw the pulled foot there is no way PU should be able to change your mind nor should he even try.

I too believe it is bad decorum, and CONTRARY TO THE RULE BOOK for the non-calling partner to question his partners call without first being asked. I have seen several plays already this year where my partner should have asked me for help, and I would have given him a call opposit of his, but he didn't, and I get to work on keeping a straight face!

I also agree that you don't neccissarily, as the base umpire, NEED to make a call and wait for the coach for you to ask for help. I also think it would be a sign of weakness to go for help too often, and this could call into question your competency on the field.

The way I cover the pulled foot/swipe tag at 1st issue in pre-games:

If you/I are unsure, and there is reasonable doubt if the fielder stayed on the bag/runner was not tagged, ASK IMMEDIATELY. Don't guess! Ask for help.

If you/I are pretty sure you seen it, and there isn't reasonable doubt if the fielder stayed on the bad/runner was not tagged, MAKE THE CALL. Use good timing and sell it appropriately. I might say something to the effect of (as I am signaling the out) "Yes, he stayed on the bag", or of course "On the tag" as a way to sell the call to the nearby 1st base coach. If he is off the bag, use the "Safe! Off the bag!" signal. No tag, I might say "No tag!" really loud while making my safe signal and shaking my head no.

Since adopting the above, I have had MUCH less questioning about my calls.

But, coaches are going to disagree. Fine. If a coach asks me to ask for help on a pulled foot/swipe tag at first after the fact, I am going to go talk to my partner about it. Before doing so, I will tell the coach "I am going to talk to myu partner and make sure I have all the info coach. It will still be my call", and I WILL NOT let the coach go to talk to my partner about the call after we confer.

I think it is important though to lose the idea that you HAVE to make a call. If you have a doubt, ASK FOR HELP! Trust me, it only adds credibility to the job you do. Even the coach that it goes against has a hard time faulting you for asking for help. COACHES ARE THE ONES THAT INITIATED THIS WHOLE "ASK FOR HELP" MECHANIC WE NOW HAVE!!! It pleases them when you do.

In the current culture of umpiring, you don't have to live and die by your call like you did the old days (thank god!). Take advantage of this and work as a team.

In no other sport where there is an officiating crew have I seen officials who are so pig headed about sticking with their call as umpires are. It is changing, and I think it is a good change. But, there are still a lot of guys who have the old "That is my call, I am sticking to it" mentality, or think it is a show of weakness to not make a call first and wait to see if there is an arguement. To me, that is hogwash umpiring, and I feel uncomfortable with partners who think this way. It is not on-board with "Get the call right" mentality. That way of thinking is "Let's see if I can get away with an out".

Man up and be willing to ask for help with you have a reasonable doubt about the play. But first, remember to see if your partner was in any position to actually help! God knows, I have seen too many plate guys not be where they should be on plays at first.

Originally Posted by CO ump

Many times partners will have some sign they give to their partner in certain situations to let them know they may have pertinent information that may be useful.
When given this sign the calling ump may or may not choose to get it or use it.
For a PU to force a conference on a judgement call made by U1 is uncalled for and absolutely inappropriate.

Another disturbing part of the OP is this:
It's one thing to be in B or C position, miss a pulled foot and feel a need to ask PU for help.
It's quite another to rule and signal pulled foot, make a safe call and then change the call.
You either saw the pulled foot or you didn't. If you indicate pulled foot then you darn well have better seen the pulled foot. If you saw the pulled foot there is no way PU should be able to change your mind nor should he even try.

I agree. But, sometimes, you just have to humor the coach.

You could possibly go to your partner and say "Just shake your head yes to everything".

One time, while I was an Assistant Referee in a soccer game, the center referee came up to me, after he made a controversial call that resulted in a Penalty Kick, and asked "You like cake don't you?". I shook my head yes, and he said "Thanks. Good job". I didn't understanding until he explained later "I just needed to make sure that it appeared you seen the same thing I did". It was funny as hell, and a very creative way to support his call! It worked because the coach was yelling and screaming that it wasn't a foul until the very second I shook my head yes. Immediately, the coach quit complaining and never said another word. Nice!

[tayjaid]

Last night I worked a game with a partner I had never met. ( I was filling in ) As he got his equipment on we disscussed coverages and situations. He said "I will not overrule you unless I am 150% sure". Third inning, play at first, throw is up 1st base line towards home. Firstbaseman was clearly off the base. I could not tell if there was a tag. (I was in C) I simply looked at my partner and said "Do we have a tag?" He replied "yes I have a tag" I call out on the tag. No complaints, no groans from the crowd.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by tayjaid

He said "I will not overrule you unless I am 150% sure".

To which my reply would have been, "I hope you mean you'll never overrule me. You may give me additional information that may persuade me to change my call, but you won't overrule me, right?"

This is a BIG misconception that coaches and managers have. Let's make sure we have it right.

[DG]

I can count on one hand the number of times I have been asked for help on a pulled foot at 1b. I always go over this in pre-game but I am rarely needed. If you come to me I assume you have an out if the foot was on the bag or you would have called safe due to runner beating the throw. If you come to me after making a call because a coach complained I will tell you what I saw and it is up to you if you want to change the call, but I will advise against because once you start this both coaches will be like a jack in the box on every close call. If it was something like a dropped ball that you may not have seen I will advise you to change the call or if the call involved a rule misinterpretation I will advise you to change the call. But just judgement on a banger, or a pulled foot, these are best left alone, if you have already made a call.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by cshs81

Disclaimer: I'm not an umpire.

2 man crew. Field umpire ruled that F3 pulled his foot off the base and called the runner safe...home plate umpire calls his partner into a private discussion. They then changed the call to an out...Is this a proper way to handle this? Or should the home plate ump wait until being asked for help by his partner?

Are there any situations where the non-calling umpire initiates the conversation with his partner?

Thanks

The protocol in this instance is for base umpire to make the call he sees. He can only ask for help is he so chooses.

WTS, any decent BU will want all the help he can get, here or anywhere. If BU/Home plate umpire (PU) are really good, then they will coordinate this "foot off the bag" problem between themselves sight unsee, See my post to DG on this.

Two ggod umpires can look at each other, hand signal, w/e and cause the calling umpire to appear to ask for help. It's about getting the call right and noting, nothing else mtters,

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

We have MLB to thank for partners over turning one another without being asked.

The call BELONGS to the BU.

The BU has 2 choices

1. Stick with his call or
2. Check with his partner

HOWEVER,

The PU should not chime in unless he asked by his partner NOT the coach.

To me this is no different then a check swing.

F1, F2 the coach the Pope the President of the US can point to me all they want. It's not unitl my Partner points to me that I will give a signal one way or the other.

Now as Bob said depedning upon your partner etc. You could over-ride your partners call in certain situations like the ball being on the ground but that should be discussed in Pre-game

IMO, Arbritraily over-ruling your partner without being asked is not a good thing. Also, whose to say you are right.

Pete Booth

"We have MLB to thank for partners over turning one another without being asked."

NO WAY. Where did you ever see this? It's not only against umpiring mechanics, it's against the rules. When questioned by a manager, the umps confer, and then render the final decision.

"IMO, Arbritraily over-ruling your partner without being asked is not a good thing."

It's also against the rules. And a very good way to find yourself working alone. I had a female umpire do this to me on a call at 1B in a HS Varsity softball game many years ago. She came out from behind the plate, hollering, "SAFE. Pulled foot". I called the assignor the next morning, and told him the situation, and that if he ever assigned the two of us together again, I would walk off the field.

When a coach/manager approched me about a call my partner made, it was , "That's his/her call". At the pregame at home plate, I would tell the coaches/managers to go to the umpire making the call and ask if they would check with his/her partner. Of course, 90% of the time, it went in one ear and out the other.

Bob

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by tayjaid

Last night I worked a game with a partner I had never met. ( I was filling in ) As he got his equipment on we disscussed coverages and situations. He said "I will not overrule you unless I am 150% sure". Third inning, play at first, throw is up 1st base line towards home. Firstbaseman was clearly off the base. I could not tell if there was a tag. (I was in C) I simply looked at my partner and said "Do we have a tag?" He replied "yes I have a tag" I call out on the tag. No complaints, no groans from the crowd.

He said "I will not overrule you unless I am 150% sure".

"And I'm 200% sure that if you overrule me, you'll finish the rest of the game alone".

Bob