illegal Sub/CR

[Lastump]

When an illegal CR is sent into the game (illegal sub) is this an appeal only or not. If not at what point does the PU, call the illegal sub out? CR Jones runs for F2 in the 1st inning, in the 3rd inning CR smith (who already ran for F1) is sent out. Do i let it happen and before the next pitch call the illegal sub or is this an appeal.

(And yes i now preventive umpiring would not let the wrong CR come out in the first place but certainly if the coach can't keep track of which players are legal or not who am i to say otherwsie.)

thanks

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by Lastump

When an illegal CR is sent into the game (illegal sub) is this an appeal only or not. If not at what point does the PU, call the illegal sub out? CR Jones runs for F2 in the 1st inning, in the 3rd inning CR smith (who already ran for F1) is sent out. Do i let it happen and before the next pitch call the illegal sub or is this an appeal.

(And yes i now preventive umpiring would not let the wrong CR come out in the first place but certainly if the coach can't keep track of which players are legal or not who am i to say otherwsie.)

thanks

1. Use preventive umpiring and don't allow the substitution if you know it is illegal.

2. Yes, the defense must appeal the illegal substitution.

[ManInBlue]

Unless I'm mistaken, a CR is not a substitution. The "illegal sub" as you call it, is just fixed. Prevent it on the front end, but if you miss it and they appeal, get the right one out there. To the best of my knowledge there is no penalty for it as it's not a sub.

[umpduck11]

A player ineligible to be a CR is considered an illegal substitute, and shall be called out and restricted to the dugout. 3.1.1 Situation R

[DG]

Originally Posted by Lastump

When an illegal CR is sent into the game (illegal sub) is this an appeal only or not. If not at what point does the PU, call the illegal sub out? CR Jones runs for F2 in the 1st inning, in the 3rd inning CR smith (who already ran for F1) is sent out. Do i let it happen and before the next pitch call the illegal sub or is this an appeal.

Record all CR's for pitcher and catcher and don't allow the same person to run for both. Someone who has participated in the game is ineligble to be a CR so if this occurs he is considered to be an illegal substitute, dealt with as such when the defense questions so if you know the CR has been in the game don't allow it.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by umpduck11

A player ineligible to be a CR is considered an illegal substitute, and shall be called out and restricted to the dugout. 3.1.1 Situation R

I stand corrected. I was thinking (specific) tournament rules, which are some what altered.

[edhern]

One answer was don't allow it as preventive umpiring, but it is an appeal. What is you are keeping a scorecard with a lineup and substitutions as I was in a Fed game. I didn't allow it when I noticed a substitute re-entering after being pinch run for, even though the coach was willing to take a chance on appeal that probably never would have happened. Was it my obligation to prevent it (which I did)?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by edhern

One answer was don't allow it as preventive umpiring, but it is an appeal. What is you are keeping a scorecard with a lineup and substitutions as I was in a Fed game. I didn't allow it when I noticed a substitute re-entering after being pinch run for, even though the coach was willing to take a chance on appeal that probably never would have happened. Was it my obligation to prevent it (which I did)?

Yes, imo. 10-1-1.

If the coach "insists" on it, then I'd allow it, and immediately declare the runner out. The illegal sub can be discovered by the umpire or either team. 3-1-1.

[DG]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes, imo. 10-1-1.

If the coach "insists" on it, then I'd allow it, and immediately declare the runner out. The illegal sub can be discovered by the umpire or either team. 3-1-1.

Good one. I think I would advise the coach what is about to happen.

[bossman72]

If you let the illegal sub go, then call him out, your convo will go something like this:

You: "CR is out for illegal substitution"
Coach: "What's he out for?"
You: "You illegally put him in the game"
Coach: "But I stood right in front of you and gave you the sub, and you ALLOWED it. How can it be illegal now?"
You: "Uhhhh..."

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by bossman72

If you let the illegal sub go, then call him out, your convo will go something like this:

You: "CR is out for illegal substitution"
Coach: "What's he out for?"
You: "You illegally put him in the game"
Coach: "But I stood right in front of you and gave you the sub, and you ALLOWED it. How can it be illegal now?"
You: "You insisted on it, knowing the risk you take in doing so. You demanded it; I allowed it; I called him out. The end."

Edited to reflect what I might say.

[DG]

Originally Posted by bossman72

If you let the illegal sub go, then call him out, your convo will go something like this:

You: "CR is out for illegal substitution"
Coach: "What's he out for?"
You: "You illegally put him in the game"
Coach: "But I stood right in front of you and gave you the sub, and you ALLOWED it. How can it be illegal now?"
You: "Uhhhh..."

Like i said, advise him of what is about to happen if he insists on putting a player in illegally, knowing that you know this.

[Lastump]

so here is what i did.

Coach: Cr for pitcher please. #3
PU: coach are you sure you want #3 to run
Coach: yup, tells #3 to get out there.
PU: Coach is that a legal CR?
Coach: sure it is.
pause.............
PU: Time, Cr is out as an illegal sub, #3 subed in 2nd inning for RF who reentered.
Coach: then why did you let me put him in again
PU: i ask 2x and i asked if he was a legal sub.
Coach: how am i supposed to know, you have the lineups
PU: coach you are home, you have the offical book.
Coach: turns to Assistant to check the book, and kicks him out of the dugout.
Coach: "thats BS"
PU: excuse me thats not called for, legts play (yes i have some patience)
Coach: i wasn't talking to you but i should have been.
PU: goodbye.

[ODJ]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

you dumped him for that???

YOU is the magic word.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Lastump

so here is what i did.

Coach: Cr for pitcher please. #3
PU: coach are you sure you want #3 to run
Coach: yup, tells #3 to get out there.
PU: Coach is that a legal CR?
Coach: sure it is.
pause.............
PU: Time, Cr is out as an illegal sub, #3 subed in 2nd inning for RF who reentered.
Coach: then why did you let me put him in again
PU: i ask 2x and i asked if he was a legal sub.
Coach: how am i supposed to know, you have the lineups
PU: coach you are home, you have the offical book.
Coach: turns to Assistant to check the book, and kicks him out of the dugout.
Coach: "thats BS"
PU: excuse me thats not called for, legts play (yes i have some patience)
Coach: i wasn't talking to you but i should have been.
PU: goodbye.

Sorry but that's poor game management in my eyes. You have the lineups, you are official so tell the coach.

No sir you can't run #3 he can only run for F2 etc.,

Keep it simple. You basically made a "mountian or of a mole hill".

And then you had to eject him also?

If this was MLB fine etc., but you are the official lineup and telling the coach what to do is
good umpiring.

Thanks
David