One of those days.....

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Michael,

I would be very interested to find out what your or my HS state association would say in response to your report to them about this forfeit...

I'd guess it would go something like this: "The coach refused to take the field? Good forfeit. Oh, here's a fine for the coach and a few days off to think about his actions."

Hmmmmmmmm....

Why did you call a balk on the pick off attempt at 1st base? Did the pitcher not step directly to the bag?

Why did you leave the field to get a rule book. I have NEVER done this, nor EVER seen that done in a high school game. Yes, the NCAA allows this, but it is only for the official to look something up in the book.

To not confer with your partner about a misapplied rule, is, well, bad! Ok, he was the UIC, and ultimately, it is his call, but I would have been having a seriously pointed discussion during and after the game about this.

[jkumpire]

rei,

FED Case Book 6.2.4J and comment A, p. 53.

As to the book, it was a mistake-- but the FED umpire's manual does recommend that the umpires have access to a rule book for situations like this. We did have a disucssion after the game.

[jkumpire]

Yes Bob, you and Michael are probably right. But I would not be happy about ending a game like this, would you?

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Yup. The rules are what I say they are.

"Coach, if you don't like it, protest."

If your state doesn't allow protests, then I guess the coach is screwed. Play ball.

My state is irrelevant, because I don't do FED ball.

Originally Posted by jkumpire

rei,

FED Case Book 6.2.4J and comment A, p. 53.

As to the book, it was a mistake-- but the FED umpire's manual does recommend that the umpires have access to a rule book for situations like this. We did have a disucssion after the game.

I knew that was going to be what you would site for justification to call a balk.

So, with that in mind, that F3 is "20' off the bag". Do you think he could make a play on the runner from that far away if the runner slipped and fell? He most certainly could! Are you a fortune teller and can tell when and if the runner might slip and fall returning to the bag? Heck, I call out a runner about every 3rd game because they slip and fall on their way back to 1st! IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!

I would not be so quick to assume that a play cannot be made. The pitcher made a legal pick off attempt. For me, F3 is going to need to be pretty close to F9 before I am willing to say he is not close enough to make a play. You get what I am saying? New guys that I mentor bring this up every year because it seems to happen every year. It almost always turns into something nasty for them when they balk it. Then I tell them to quit balking that "stretch" of a balk, and when they do, they quit getting nasty arguments about it. Maybe the offensive coach says "Hey, F3 is off the bag". Simply they reply "Coach, he is in proximity". That has ALWAYS ended the discussion with no further complaint.

Keep the rule book in the car. After 22 years of doing this, I can tell you that it will lead to nothing but trouble to go digging around in a rule book during the game. The only time I would consider this is if I was unsure, and the ruling would have an outcome in the game. I will never let a coaches request lead me to looking it up during the game. You were sure you had it right, and delayed the game to humor the coach who doesn't know jack, then you got your partner making deals without you there. NOW do you see why I say "Keep the rule book in the car" and don't go get it during a game?

[jkumpire]

Two good points, but...

1. you cannot assume the offense is going to screw up so F3 can make a play here. If he is not in the vicinity of the base, it is a balk. Even though FED has a looser standard than NCAA or OBR, it is still a balk here.

I have almost 30 years experience, and yes, I should have left the book where it was. But, under the circumstances as I had them at the field at the time (delay, well I have time..) I thought it was okay to do.

.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Two good points, but...

If he is not in the vicinity of the base, it is a balk. Even though FED has a looser standard than NCAA or OBR, it is still a balk here.

This is an inaccurate statement. The fielder's proximity to the base is irrelevant.

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by UMP25

This is an inaccurate statement. The fielder's proximity to the base is irrelevant.

Correct! The key to balk/no balk is does F3 have a legitimate play on R1.

[UMP25]

There is an exception, of course (isn't there always?): even if F3 isn't anywhere near the base and no play is being made, if the ball is thrown TO first base, no balk is to be called. Of course, odds are that when this occurs, R1 is gonna take off to second.

[mikebran]

We have a WINNER! Yeee yikes!

The Mother of Mistakes. (as said by the poster).

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Okay, here is my mistake-- I said; "Okay I have a rule book in my car." So out I go,

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Yes Bob, you and Michael are probably right. But I would not be happy about ending a game like this, would you?

I would not be happy that the game ended this way either, but I would be very satisfied knowing that my partner and I enforced the rules the game was ment to be played under.

[jkumpire]

Casebook p.53, 6.2.4j: "Proximity is umpire judgment and is based on whether the fielder is close enough to the base to legitimately make a play on the runner."

So it is a matter of distance and ability to make a play by F3. In this situation he was 20' or more away, was not in the process of making a play, and was in no position to make a play. I stand by what I said, even if it was not to everyone's liking.

Also, with respect, the mother of all mistakes was not going out to get a rule book. It was an error, but it was done for a legit reason with good intentions on my part. The thing did blow up in my face, but I can guarantee you that nobody at the game other than me cared about this, and nobody but us cares about it now. And that may just be the most frustrating thing of all.

Could we lock up this thread now?

[UMP25]

You said FED's standard's were looser than OBR or NCAA. That is inaccurate. Neither OBR nor NCAA has any requirement on F3's proximity. The wording of your OP implied you were referring to OBR and NCAA.

BTW, because I don't do FED ball by my own choosing--I'd rather stick to this world when umpiring baseball--I don't reply with rules explanations dealing with FED. I stick to what I know best, that being OBR and NCAA.

[PeteBooth]

[

QUOTE=RichMSN]

I do not live in irrational fear but in the world of REALITY

People sue over the trivial of matters. Why give them amunition when you do not have to.

I gather from your response that you would allow coaches to make "deals" I do not.

I fear no one especially soemone who posts on the internet.

Pete Booth