One of those days.....

[jkumpire]

Normal FED game between good team and ugly team.

Ugly team gets all mad because on a steal of 2B by good team. F4 says he held his glove on the kid stealing as the ball went into the glove, as he tags him on the hip 3 feet towards the 1B side of 2B, while R1's feet are on the bag. Pretty obvious blown call by BU .

Then later in the game ugly team F1, with the score 9-0 I think, throws ball to F3 on a pick when the F3 is 20 feet off 1B. "Well he got that right", says ugly team manager as I call the balk (who says he has 18 years of umpiring experience). In retrospect, I should have not called the balk, if he was the magic run, he would have gotten to 3B, and then the game could have ended.

Next 1/2 inning on a force play at 2B, R1 buries F6; slides across the bag full go, lead foot high, right into the knee of F6, who is behind the back edge of 2B. R1 is out about every way you can be at 2B, taking the BR with him, and F6 is holding his knee rolling on the ground.

Now here comes the good team manager. He has used all his subs and of course of the six guys he has subbed in do not include F6, so he says "I have no subs, who can I put in." "Coach, I'm sorry but you gotta play with 8."

"No way, I have to sub somebody."

"Coach, those are the rules." My partner and I are staring at each other. How do you tell him exactly where an obvious rule is, like, starters can reenter once, and must stay in the batting order, and you can end a game with less than nine players, etc. You just can't say, read it yourself tonight after dinner...

"I want to see this in the rule book."

Okay, here is my mistake-- I said; "Okay I have a rule book in my car." So out I go, since they have not carted F6 off the field. As I leave, the ugly team manager says: " I don't want to start an argument, why did you call my runner out at 1B?"

After explaining it was FPSR and illegal slide violation, he asked why I was leaving the field. I told him something.

By the time I get back, I hear-- "It's okay we straightened it out." And you know the rest already. (For those of you who don't-- the two managers got together, the ugly team manager picked a player off the good team bench, and he was the sub for the injured player. Yes, I know how bad it sounds, we allow an illegal sub into the game, or should I say my partner let it happen. Path of least resistance I guess, but since I was the BU I did not know for sure until after the game).

At that point, I'm just trying to get out of Dodge before something really bad happens. And so we did, and that is just the serious parts of the game. I'm glad I only have one mess like this every other season, but it is still irritating....

[johnnyg08]

with all due respect sir...may I ask you...what the "f" kind of show are you running? what other rules do you choose to not enforce? yikes

[mbyron]

Ew. I got stuck on a frosh game the other day and we had a BOO. The defense had already thrown one pitch to the next batter, so there was no out to be called. The coach didn't know the rule and cried about it. The scorekeeper actually started walking out onto the field to cry about it between innings, and I told him that I didn't have time to explain the rule to him.

I'm not sure that I would have allowed the illegal sub, even with both coaches' and UIC's agreement. Word of that gets back to the state office, and there might be questions to answer...

Just like ground rules, it doesn't matter that everyone agrees -- you just can't violate the rule book. I know that you know this jk, and were just looking to get out of he11, but still.

[jkumpire]

Johnny and Byron,

I am not running a doggone thing, or I wouldn't be talking about it. You think I wrote this because I'm happy about it? Look, in a lot of places today rules don't matter, if you can find something convenient that satisfies both sides. It stinks. And if one coach involved is/was an umpire, it's even worse. How in the world can you be down in a game and then agree to something like this? Now you have thrown your own team under the bus.

No, you can't violate the book, but when you are not the UIC, and you don't know until after the game the coaches agreed on this (though I admit I had a feeling it wasn;t the team manager they dressed), please tell me what you can do about it? I could walk off the field, or run both managers, or throw my partner under the bus, or do all those things and look like such a rube I won't get a game within 100 miles of my house.

Yeah, I could have just said, "Look coach, these are the rules, you don't like what we are saying, tough. Look it up yourself." But we had time to get a book and show him, and since obviously the coach has never had the situation before he doesn't know. Showing him in a book when you have to get it w/o delaying the game is not a mistake. Maybe I'm too ncie a guy to be an umpire, but if you have alternatives under the circumstances, I'll listen to them.

[etn_ump]

So, you didn't see anything malicious involving the runner at 2nd and F6?

Put a tent on your circus.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Johnny and Byron,

I am not running a doggone thing, or I wouldn't be talking about it. You think I wrote this because I'm happy about it? Look, in a lot of places today rules don't matter, if you can find something convenient that satisfies both sides. It stinks. And if one coach involved is/was an umpire, it's even worse. How in the world can you be down in a game and then agree to something like this? Now you have thrown your own team under the bus.

No, you can't violate the book, but when you are not the UIC, and you don't know until after the game the coaches agreed on this (though I admit I had a feeling it wasn;t the team manager they dressed), please tell me what you can do about it? I could walk off the field, or run both managers, or throw my partner under the bus, or do all those things and look like such a rube I won't get a game within 100 miles of my house.

Yeah, I could have just said, "Look coach, these are the rules, you don't like what we are saying, tough. Look it up yourself." But we had time to get a book and show him, and since obviously the coach has never had the situation before he doesn't know. Showing him in a book when you have to get it w/o delaying the game is not a mistake. Maybe I'm too ncie a guy to be an umpire, but if you have alternatives under the circumstances, I'll listen to them.

Actually as an umpire you are not there to appease both coaches. You are there to officiate the game by the playing rules. The fact that one of the coaches claimed to be an umpire is irrelevant.

A rules book was requested and the request was met. The alternatives for this game situation were in the retrieved rules book; sadly you and your partner chose to ignore them.

What would have been wrong with getting together with your partner and reviewing the rule and deciding to enforce the rule and then presenting this decision to the coaches? Your alternatives were either to enforce the rules or not enforce the rules. Sadly you and your partner chose not to.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

No, you can't violate the book, but when you are not the UIC, and you don't know until after the game the coaches agreed on this (though I admit I had a feeling it wasn;t the team manager they dressed), please tell me what you can do about it? I could walk off the field, or run both managers, or throw my partner under the bus, or do all those things and look like such a rube I won't get a game within 100 miles of my house.

Hey, I'm not telling you what to do. All I'm saying is that I would have stopped play if I returned to the field and magically there were 9 on defense again. I would have asked my partner what happened, tried to persuade him that we couldn't play that way no matter what the coaches agreed to, and if he did not agree I would tell him that full responsibility for the matter lay with him.

As for going to the rule book, if you can do it quickly I have no problem with it.

[rngrck]

I'm sorry Johnny, but this is a classic example of what can happen when you lose control of the game to a point where now the coaches are running the show!! Never let the coaches intimidate you guys.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by mbyron

As for going to the rule book, if you can do it quickly I have no problem with it.

I do! There's no frickin' way I'm going to bring out a rule book. The rule book is here (Ump25 points to his head). If a coach believes I've misinterpretated (nod to G.W. there) a rule, he has a legitimate recourse: a protest. Period.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Normal FED game between good team and ugly team.

the score 9-0 I think,

Next 1/2 inning on a force play at 2B, R1 buries F6; slides across the bag full go, lead foot high, right into the knee of F6, who is behind the back edge of 2B. R1 is out about every way you can be at 2B, taking the BR with him, and F6 is holding his knee rolling on the ground.

I agree with anoter poster if R1 did burry F6 as you say what in the world is he still doing in the game. The score is 9-0 and you are lucky that in addition to one of teams being ugly the ENTIRE game didn't turn ugly.

This game was anything but "Normal" as you say in the beginning of your OP.

By the time I get back, I hear-- "It's okay we straightened it out." And you know the rest already. (For those of you who don't-- the two managers got together, the ugly team manager picked a player off the good team bench, and he was the sub for the injured player. Yes, I know how bad it sounds, we allow an illegal sub into the game.

This illegal player (which both you and your partner KNOW is illegal) gets injured. His parents now sue.

What are you going to tell the judge?

Your honor the coaches made a "deal" and even though we knew it was a violation of the rules we let it happen anyhow. Make certain you have a "dream team" for attorneys.

I will exaggerate to get my point across.

Both Coaches 'agree" that there players do not need to wear batting helmets when batting. Since the coaches agreed and you and your partner IGNOR look at the ramifications.

Pete Booth

[Rich]

Originally Posted by UMP25

I do! There's no frickin' way I'm going to bring out a rule book. The rule book is here (Ump25 points to his head). If a coach believes I've misinterpretated (nod to G.W. there) a rule, he has a legitimate recourse: a protest. Period.

Yup. The rules are what I say they are.

"Coach, if you don't like it, protest."

If your state doesn't allow protests, then I guess the coach is screwed. Play ball.

[Rich]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

I agree with anoter poster if R1 did burry F6 as you say what in the world is he still doing in the game. The score is 9-0 and you are lucky that in addition to one of teams being ugly the ENTIRE game didn't turn ugly.

This game was anything but "Normal" as you say in the beginning of your OP.




This illegal player (which both you and your partner KNOW is illegal) gets injured. His parents now sue.

What are you going to tell the judge?

Your honor the coaches made a "deal" and even though we knew it was a violation of the rules we let it happen anyhow. Make certain you have a "dream team" for attorneys.

I will exaggerate to get my point across.

Both Coaches 'agree" that there players do not need to wear batting helmets when batting. Since the coaches agreed and you and your partner IGNOR look at the ramifications.

Pete Booth

You worry that an illegal substitute (who is only illegal cause he used his eligibility) may get hurt and sue you? How's it feel to live in irrational fear?

[jkumpire]

Thanks men for all the responses:

I am irritated at some, but that is how you learn:

1. Excuse the misapplication of the word "bury". I should have edited the post. It was an illegal slide, it was a FPSR violation, but R1 did not "bury" F6 like a runner burying a catcher at home plate. I thought for a second about MC, but it was not MC. It was a FPSR violation and an illegal slide violation. I have ejected people for MC, this was not MC. He didn't run over F6, he made illegal contact.

2. Men, you don't understand something, I was not on the field when the deal was made. Did they dress a manager? Was there a JV kid at the game not in uniform because there was no Varsity game that day? How in heaven's name do I know? I only found out about it after the game when I asked my partner who was the UIC if that was a legal player/sub. I won't detail the conversation, but let's suffice it say that I was not overly happy about it. At the time when I am coming back onto the field, and I am told we are ready to play, you're telling me I should have so little trust in my partner I should say: "Well (partner), is this a legal sub? Where did he come from?"

Okay, next time I'll throw my partner under the bus, eject at least one manager, if not two, and win the fight in the parking lot after the game.

3. In this situation, where a coach is dealing with something he has never seen before, and especially with the state I work in that does not allow protests, this was IMO, a rare time when a rule book could be helpful to clearing up a problem. I knew the rule, my partner did to (I assume). In retrospect, I should not have gotten the book out. But I chose to try not to get into an argument with a probable ejection of a manager whose team just lost a player. Obviously that was a mistake, if I was on the field, this would have never happened.

If I was looking for scalps, or to prove I could have gotten them yesterday, I could have proved I was the hardest, toughest umpire in the Eastern US. But the game is for the kids, not my ego. I've dumped enough people to prove my bonafides in this area.

4. I would be interested to hear how you would handle it if the other manager said, 'let me pick a sub from your bench." If I was there, the answer is NO. Period. End of conversation. How do you handle the ensuing argument? If they refuse to hear no, do you eject people until you get your way, forfeit the game, or walk off the field?

5.I could say other stuff, but let's leave it here for now. One last lesson for me, be very careful what you put on the internet. I was and am irritated about this situation, I should not have let this out in public, since now I am not only irritated, I look like a fool in some of your eyes. That stings even more.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

4. I would be interested to hear how you would handle it if the other manager said, 'let me pick a sub from your bench." If I was there, the answer is NO. Period. End of conversation. How do you handle the ensuing argument? If they refuse to hear no, do you eject people until you get your way, forfeit the game, or walk off the field?

Coach, you can continue with eight. Let's play ball now. If the coach refuses to take the field, forfeit the game. If the game is forfeited, you and your partner leave the field together.

[jkumpire]

Michael,

I would be very interested to find out what your or my HS state association would say in response to your report to them about this forfeit...