Church vs State

[lawump]

Your not-so-witty sarcasm and story aside...you are beginning to strike me as the type of guy who would be the first to use the above historical "trivia" I have provided at some gathering in some vain attempt to impress your friends.

Either that, or judging by the contents of your last post, you have simply devolved and resorted to the lowest common denominator of attacking the messenger despite the messenger having cogently explained his original message.

I certainly hope neither is true as either would be sad (and beneath you) as I have, usually, in the past, enjoyed your posts.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by lawump

Your not-so-witty sarcasm and story aside...you are beginning to strike me as the type of guy who would be the first to use the above historical "trivia" I have provided at some gathering in some vain attempt to impress your friends.

Either that, or judging by the contents of your last post, you have simply devolved and resorted to the lowest common denominator of attacking the messenger despite the messenger having cogently explained his original message.

I certainly hope neither is true as either would be sad (and beneath you) as I have, usually, in the past, enjoyed your posts.

WTF??? As my favorite sergeant would say...."lighten up, Francis."

I would have thought an attorney with your years of experience would be able to handle my story, which is absolutley true and void of any sarcasm, with a bit of humor. (In fact, I recieved the last invoice I referenced just four days ago. I'd be happy to scan it and forward a copy.)

Having a bad day? Surely you've heard far worse stories about members of your profession. I've heard far worse about members of my profession. Hell, you can't pick up a paper or watch CNN with seeing another teacher screwing a student.

I, too, have enjoyed and agreed with the vast majority of your posts, but this rather dour one surpises me.

As for using your trivia...no, it wouldn't be meaningful to most of those I know. To non-attorneys, Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka Kansas will always refer to the board of education in Topeka, Kansas regardless of how many cases were combined. That's why your initial post of Brown v Board of education being a South Carolina suit surprised several here.

A piece of triva my friends would find more interesting is that the colony of Georgia was first inhabited by indentured servants who British businessman conviced King George to release from debtors prison so that they could work off their debts. King George argeed that keeping them in prison would do little to get the businessman their money and just happened to a piece of land in mind.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Lawrence.Dorsey

Mark,

I'll have to make a correction here regarding NC. There separate governing bodies for the public and private schools here in NC. I've listed the web links to the two of them. I know of only one private school, Charlotte Catholic, that belongs to the public school association. It is is a large private school and is able to compete with the public schools in all sports including football. Public schools and private schools do play each other in holiday tournaments but I don't think they ever play each other during the regular season (I can't be completely sure on that one). However, they do not compete (with the exception of Charlotte Catholic) in the playoffs. There are separate playoffs for public and private schools.


Lawrence

Public Schools- www.nchsaa.org
Private Schools- www.ncisaa.org

Independent schools in NC can choose to join NCHSAA or NCISAA. Cardinal Gibbons in Raleigh is another that has chosen to be a member of NCHSAA. They play at the 2A level. I'm sure there are others.

[Lawrence.Dorsey]

DG,

I didn't know that Gibbons had joined also. Makes sense, they are a large Catholic high school as well. If you consider the charter(such as Gray Stone Day here in Stanly Co.) and special schools (such as the 2 schools for the deaf) as public, then Gibbons and Charlotte Catholic are the only 2 private schools I could find that are members of the NCHSAA. You are right that private schools CAN join NCHSAA, but in almost all cases they choose to join NCISAA.

Lawrence

[SAump]

Texas is believed to be one of three states in which private schools typically are not allowed to compete with public schools in statewide extracurricular organizations.

Source: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/sta...e.35bc767.html
Provides more detail than I care to state and perhaps more useful to interested parties here who may follow the case.

Cornerstone filed the suit in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Texas.

Source: http://www.christianpost.com/article...tic_League.htm
The media only reports what took place. The initial court decision favored the UIL. No further info on appeal status.

Admission of error in OP. I said it was a large school. Facts from article cited above lead me to believe it is actually a smaller private school and has a less successful TAPPS athletic program than OP may indicate.

UIL magnate schools attract students from across nearby district boundaries. Some of the state's most successful high school programs fail to mention star players moving into the district during the eighth grade.

UIL spokesman, JW Rutledge, coached at successful 5A Judson HS. Middle school teams played under the guise of larger high school "farm" systems. JW fought repeated attempts to build another public high school in his own district. Judson swelled to over 4,000 students during his tenure as football coach. A new high school was approved after he resigned as football coach. Why does he fear competiton from smaller private schools?

[lawump]

Originally Posted by GarthB

WTF??? As my favorite sergeant would say...."lighten up, Francis."

I would have thought an attorney with your years of experience would be able to handle my story, which is absolutley true and void of any sarcasm, with a bit of humor. (In fact, I recieved the last invoice I referenced just four days ago. I'd be happy to scan it and forward a copy.)

Having a bad day?

Actually, no. Today was the first day I got on the field (although not as an umpire (that has to wait 7 more days)), but rather as a father playing catch with his son before his son tried out for LL baseball (minors division).

I apologize if I mistook the tone and meaning of your story as being an attack "on the messenger (me)"...and completely missed the humor. Please except my sincere apology.

I too find both Georgia's and colonial American history fascinating. I actually had John Hancock's great-great-great....granddaughter as a childhood classmate. (I'm not originally from SC as you might guess). As for my family, my great-great-great...pepere fought in the French and Indian War: against George Washington"s troops. He was the only one of 4 brothers to survive. Fascinating stuff.

There...now I've given you some of my family trivia, too.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by lawump

Today was the first day I got on the field (although not as an umpire (that has to wait 7 more days)), but rather as a father playing catch with his son before his son tried out for LL baseball (minors division).

Enjoy these days. They are special.

I remember when my sons were very young, people would tell me how fast time would fly and how soon they would be grown. I remember, also, thinking, "yeah, right." The here and now seemed to last forever then. And then, it was gone...suddenly and without warning.

My proudest achievement as a dad is that I have no regrets of wishing I had spent more time with my boys. My wife and I put watching and helping them grow above all else for 21 years.

Now, I have more memories than I have time to remember, and they are still creating more. My older son will see one of his compositions recorded later this year by Billy Hart and his combo, and my younger son will be umpiring in the Northwest League this coming season. I'll be watching baseball while listneing to my IPod.

[lawump]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Enjoy these days. They are special.

I remember when my sons were very young, people would tell me how fast time would fly and how soon they would be grown. I remember, also, thinking, "yeah, right." The here and now seemed to last forever then. And then, it was gone...suddenly and without warning.

My proudest achievement as a dad is that I have no regrets of wishing I had spent more time with my boys. My wife and I put watching and helping them grow above all else for 21 years.

Now, I have more memories than I have time to remember, and they are still creating more. My older son will see one of his compositions recorded later this year by Bill Hart and his combo, and my younger son will be umpiring in the Northwest League this coming season, I'll be watching baseball while listneing to my IPod.

Thanks for the advice...I am. My son is nearly 10 and I think...where has the time gone?

I nearly cried this week when my son said, "dad, I can't wait until I'm old enough to start umpiring with you."

But then I caught myself and said, "why in the hell would you want to do that!?!" (I'm sure you can appreciate!)

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Matt

Judging by the name TAPPS (I'm using that as my defense later,) the delineation is not religion per se, but whether a school is public or not. If this is the case, then the minister really doesn't have much shot at a case based on equal protection--funding source does not make one a member of a protected class.

OTOH, if the correlation between a schools being private and schools being religious is close to 1, then the case could be raised that it is de facto delineation based on religion, and he might have a bit higher chance at succeeding. However, I don't see a court stating that access to particular interscholastic opponents is a right or privilege under the 14th Amendment.

They want access to the playing fields funded by their taxpayers. Nobody cares who the opponent is, just that they show up on time. They want access to $$$ long denied them too. Similar to reverse discrimination challenge filed by white people to end college entrance exam requirements and system of racial quotas based on local demographic data. Support taxation of religious school "parents" without equal representation? Seperate but equal? Yada yada yada.

Many private institutions of higher learning across Texas are fundamentally Judeo-Christian based. Here is a directory, http://dir.yahoo.com/Regional/U_S__S...rsity/Private/. Names listed on these pages support popularity of privately-run religious institutions of higher learning. Many offer baseball scholarships to deserving young students from public schools.

[Andy]

Since nobody has mentioned Arizona yet, I will chime in.

Private Schools can join the Arizona Interscolastic Association, by applying and meeting the requirements. Schools are placed in a classification by enrollment size every two years and are allowed to petition to be moved up or down.

There is one small catholic school in Phoenix that routinely petitions up to the highest classification (5A, division 1) in all sports every time. They have been very successful, winning several state titles in football, basketball, and baseball over the last several years.

The big issue that is going on now is in the 2A class. Most of the private schools in the metro Phoenix and Tucson areas are placed in 2A due to student enrollment. Most of the public schools in this class are from small town, rural areas. A great majority of the state championships in this class have been won by the metro area private schools in the last few years. The public schools are complaining that the metro schoos have more population to draw from, better opportunities for outside training, more athletes being able to "specialize" in a single sport, etc...

The public schools are pushing for seperate state championships for the public and private schools in this class. It will be interesting to see how this plays out....

[Tim C]

For a more detailed look at the Brentwood case you might want to read this article by my friend Lee Green.

http://www.nfhs.org/web/2007/08/frid...ne_on_fir.aspx

Regards,

[lawump]

Originally Posted by Tim C

For a more detailed look at the Brentwood case you might want to read this article by my friend Lee Green.

http://www.nfhs.org/web/2007/08/frid...ne_on_fir.aspx

Regards,

Great article. I find, from my own experience, in my own state, that many (at my state's High School League Office) are quick to remember the ultimate outcome (that Brentwood's first amendment rights/due process rights were not violated), but seem to conveniently forget that this case conclusive determined that they are now state actors.

This issue has flared up in our state, as our state league banned one school from post-season football and another from post-season basketball for various reasons. The school banned from football was the defending state champions. (As an aside: they ended up playing their regular season and went undefeated and could not go to the playoffs).

Anyways, the state league made a lot of decisions behind closed doors, and one or both schools sued (I can't remember which)...alleging due process violations. Specifically, that they were banned without a public hearing.

Publicly, high school league officials continued (and continue to this day) to state that "it is not a state agency". But amazingly, in both cases they have relented and allowed an open public hearing (of league board members) on whether the schools should be banned. In otherwords, board members were forced to vote in public on the issue.