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-   -   Church vs State (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/41738-church-vs-state.html)

SAump Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:57am
Church vs State
 
I ask that you remain calm and reasonable and hear my question before you slam "the door" back in my face. I bring this question up before a group of umpires for discussion. I apologize if this encroachment upon your civil liberties causes any personal discomfort. ;)

A wealthy televangelist owns a very large privately funded school. He doesn't believe it is fair that his students compete in the same "league" with much smaller private schools in the local area. They win their division in every sport every year. Sometimes, even the JV squad manages to take 2nd place. There are other large private schools much further away but travel restrictions prevent those schools from competing outside of state competition.

This wealthy minister is suing the state of Texas for equal protection under the law. The state of Texas has always practiced a sort of seperation between church and state {eg. abolish school prayer}. In high school, there has always been a distinct seperation between private and public school systems with two distinct governing bodies set up for high school athletics.

The question is simple. Why shouldn't his school be allowed to play in the "UIL" which controls high school athletics for public school systems? After all, those parents who choose to send their children to private school are also paying taxes to support the same public school system which denies them equal access.

How should the high court decide?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
I ask that you remain calm and reasonable and hear my question before you slam "the door" back in my face. I bring this question up before a group of umpires for discussion. I apologize if this encroachment upon your civil liberties causes any personal discomfort. ;)

A wealthy televangelist owns a very large privately funded school. He doesn't believe it is fair that his students compete in the same "league" with much smaller private schools in the local area. They win their division in every sport every year. Sometimes, even the JV squad manages to take 2nd place. There are other large private schools much further away but travel restrictions prevent those schools from competing outside of state competition.

This wealthy minister is suing the state of Texas for equal protection under the law. The state of Texas has always practiced a sort of seperation between church and state {eg. abolish school prayer}. In high school, there has always been a distinct seperation between private and public school systems with two distinct governing bodies set up for high school athletics.
The minsters question is simple. Why shouldn't his school be allowed to play in the "UIL" which controls high school athletics for public school systems. After all, those parents who choose to send their children to private school are also paying taxes to support the same public school system which denies them equal access.

How should the high court decide?

I cannot speak for every state, but in the four states that I have officiated H.S. basketball (Ohio, Michigan, Florida, and California) there is no seperation of public and private schools. I also know that there is no seperation in the following states, because I have friends that officiate in them: Indiana, Kentucky, Tenneessee, Connecticut, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, New Jersey, Mass., Vermont, and Maine.

I knew that private schools, particularly Catholic schools, can have some very powerful programs in some sports. For instance, our sons' swim for Toledo (Ohio) Start H.S. and the swimming secionals are today. Toledo St. Francis de Sales H.S. is going for its 42nd or 43rd (I cannot remember which) straight sectional championship. But that is life.

I feeling is if that the school has the money, let him in.

MTD, Sr.

ManInBlue Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:32am
In MS thet school systems are separate. Private schools will play public schools sometimes, just to have a game. They do not play very often. The private schools are small and teh "gene pool" is limited. The bulk (no pun intended) of the students are in public school. There are some exceptions around Jackson and up towards Memphis. However, the systems are separate to the best of my knowledge.

This is my take on any state. If the schools are separate, they ALL should be separate. If you let this school in or that one in, you are showing favoritism to a school b/c they have lots of $$. That's not fair to the other schools that may be smaller or have less funds available. If you let one in, let them all in. If you choose to have them separate, tehy all should be separate. In your case, maybe the state could consider eliminating the separation and have "everyone play everyone." But the question is this: How do the other private schools feel about it?

GarthB Sat Feb 09, 2008 01:06pm
In Washington all accredited schools, whether public or private, may belong to the WIAA and compete in common leagues and districts.

Many of the private schools "play-up", that is, althought they may be "2A" in size, they belong to higher bracketed leagues. Locally, Gonzaga Prep, 2A in size, competes at the 4A level and makes it to the state tournament in football quite often.

bossman72 Sat Feb 09, 2008 01:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
In Washington all acredited schools, whether public or private, may belong to the WIAA and compete in common leagues and districts.

Many of the private schools "play-up", that is, althought they may be "2A" in size, they belong to higher bracketed leagues. Locally, Gonzaga Prep, 2A in size, competes at the 4A level and makes it to the state tournament in football quite often.

Same here in PA. The private schools usually play quad A and are in the states every year since they can basically recruit from all other school districts.

GarthB Sat Feb 09, 2008 02:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman72
Same here in PA. The private schools usually play quad A and are in the states every year since they can basically recruit from all other school districts.
Recruiting is prohibited by the WIAA for both public and private schools, HOWEVER, we have seen a promising freshman quarterback at a public school suddenly get religion by his sophomore year.

JRutledge Sat Feb 09, 2008 02:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
The question is simple. Why shouldn't his school be allowed to play in the "UIL" which controls high school athletics for public school systems? After all, those parents who choose to send their children to private school are also paying taxes to support the same public school system which denies them equal access.

How should the high court decide?
I do not know the issues being discussed in this lawsuit. And I do not know the laws of each state and I am not a lawyer.

My state has had private and public schools playing against each other for over well over 30 years.

And I do not see why this would be any different than Notre Dame, Stanford, Boston College or Duke playing the Michigan, Florida, North Carolina and UCLA teams of the college world. And from what I understand most HS associations do not separate the private schools from the public schools in any competition.

Peace

dash_riprock Sat Feb 09, 2008 02:59pm
On Long Island, Catholic schools have their own league, but they will often play non-league scrimmages against public schools (at least in baseball). The CHSAA has adopted a "wood bat only" policy (we love that), so in those games, by mutual agreement, it will be metal bats vs. wood bats.

Lawrence.Dorsey Sat Feb 09, 2008 03:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I cannot speak for every state, but in the four states that I have officiated H.S. basketball (Ohio, Michigan, Florida, and California) there is no seperation of public and private schools. I also know that there is no seperation in the following states, because I have friends that officiate in them: Indiana, Kentucky, Tenneessee, Connecticut, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, New Jersey, Mass., Vermont, and Maine.

I knew that private schools, particularly Catholic schools, can have some very powerful programs in some sports. For instance, our sons' swim for Toledo (Ohio) Start H.S. and the swimming secionals are today. Toledo St. Francis de Sales H.S. is going for its 42nd or 43rd (I cannot remember which) straight sectional championship. But that is life.

I feeling is if that the school has the money, let him in.

MTD, Sr.
Mark,

I'll have to make a correction here regarding NC. There separate governing bodies for the public and private schools here in NC. I've listed the web links to the two of them. I know of only one private school, Charlotte Catholic, that belongs to the public school association. It is is a large private school and is able to compete with the public schools in all sports including football. Public schools and private schools do play each other in holiday tournaments but I don't think they ever play each other during the regular season (I can't be completely sure on that one). However, they do not compete (with the exception of Charlotte Catholic) in the playoffs. There are separate playoffs for public and private schools.


Lawrence

Public Schools- www.nchsaa.org
Private Schools- www.ncisaa.org

canadaump6 Sat Feb 09, 2008 04:17pm
Hey SAump just out of curiosity, what does the SA stand for?

SAump Sat Feb 09, 2008 04:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
Hey SAump just out of curiosity, what does the SA stand for?
San Antonio, TX.

The minister lost his lawsuit at the local level against the Texas Education Agency and the University Interscholastic League which control public school athletics across the state. He has deep pockets and would like another opinion from a higher court. Many believe the case may reach the state's highest court. I am not privy to the legal system and only provide general info about the case as reported in the media.

Matt Sat Feb 09, 2008 04:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
I ask that you remain calm and reasonable and hear my question before you slam "the door" back in my face. I bring this question up before a group of umpires for discussion. I apologize if this encroachment upon your civil liberties causes any personal discomfort. ;)

A wealthy televangelist owns a very large privately funded school. He doesn't believe it is fair that his students compete in the same "league" with much smaller private schools in the local area. They win their division in every sport every year. Sometimes, even the JV squad manages to take 2nd place. There are other large private schools much further away but travel restrictions prevent those schools from competing outside of state competition.

This wealthy minister is suing the state of Texas for equal protection under the law. The state of Texas has always practiced a sort of seperation between church and state {eg. abolish school prayer}. In high school, there has always been a distinct seperation between private and public school systems with two distinct governing bodies set up for high school athletics.

The question is simple. Why shouldn't his school be allowed to play in the "UIL" which controls high school athletics for public school systems? After all, those parents who choose to send their children to private school are also paying taxes to support the same public school system which denies them equal access.

How should the high court decide?
I could probably give you an answer but I need a bit further info; I'm not familiar with Texas interscholastic activities--I assume that UIL is the governing body in the state. Does it have two subordinate groups, with non-religious schools playing in one, and religious schools in the other, or does it simply deny certain schools membership?

FWIW, Minnesota has one league, and almost all schools participate in it. Schools have the option of not being in MSHSL, but since just about every school participates in it, there is little benefit to not being a member.

SAump Sat Feb 09, 2008 05:04pm
Not sure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
I could probably give you an answer but I need a bit further info; I'm not familiar with Texas interscholastic activities--I assume that UIL is the governing body in the state. Does it have two subordinate groups, with non-religious schools playing in one, and religious schools in the other, or does it simply deny certain schools membership?

FWIW, Minnesota has one league, and almost all schools participate in it. Schools have the option of not being in MSHSL, but since just about every school participates in it, there is little benefit to not being a member.
Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools (TAPPS) is the other governing body. I have no clue how the groups operate. I know the TEA has legislative authority over private and charter school academic performance. I believe the TEA supports the UIL position in this matter and would believe yes is the answer to your question. The largest TAPPS schools from Houston, Dallas and San Antonio compete in state competition each year. Kinda like taking your sister to homecoming. These schools want a chance to knock off several Texas public high school football juggernauts in the super 5A division.

Matt Sat Feb 09, 2008 05:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools (TAPPS) is the other governing body. I have no clue how the groups operate. I know the TEA has legislative authority over private and charter school academic performance. I believe the TEA supports the UIL position in this matter and would believe yes is the answer to your question. The largest TAPPS schools from Houston, Dallas and San Antonio compete in state competition each year. Kinda like taking your sister to homecoming. These schools want a chance to knock off several Texas public high school football juggernauts in the super 5A division.
Judging by the name TAPPS (I'm using that as my defense later,) the delineation is not religion per se, but whether a school is public or not. If this is the case, then the minister really doesn't have much shot at a case based on equal protection--funding source does not make one a member of a protected class.

OTOH, if the correlation between a schools being private and schools being religious is close to 1, then the case could be raised that it is de facto delineation based on religion, and he might have a bit higher chance at succeeding. However, I don't see a court stating that access to particular interscholastic opponents is a right or privilege under the 14th Amendment.

GarthB Sat Feb 09, 2008 06:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
Judging by the name TAPPS (I'm using that as my defense later,) the delineation is not religion per se, but whether a school is public or not. If this is the case, then the minister really doesn't have much shot at a case based on equal protection--funding source does not make one a member of a protected class.

OTOH, if the correlation between a schools being private and schools being religious is close to 1, then the case could be raised that it is de facto delineation based on religion, and he might have a bit higher chance at succeeding. However, I don't see a court stating that access to particular interscholastic opponents is a right or privilege under the 14th Amendment.
If in Texas, as in Washington, the state exercises some influence and control in the business of private schools by accrediting them, the private schools should be able to make some argument that that should extend to school sports via TASO.


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