Horror stories from Church Basketball

[rotationslim]

Site with horror stories from Church Basketball... sad because it is true, or was true, I think most LDS Churches have cleaned up their programs, and don't stand for this kind of moronic behavior, at least out here in the Michigan, not sure about Zion.

http://www.halestormentertainment.co...orum/index.php

[zebraman]

That's some funny stuff. I'm tempted to use a quote from one of those church ball posts as my signature line:

"Church Basketball: The brawl that begins with prayer."

LOL.

Z

[ChrisSportsFan]

another guy called it "Church Basketbrawl".

These are unbelievable stories that I'd hate to see happen but I enjoy hearing about them.

[gostars]

I can't get the link to work.

[ChrisSportsFan]

it works

[icallfouls]

I have a couple of Church League stories to relate, one as a player, the other as a ref.

As a Player:
I was just starting my officiating career but was still playing ball because our team really needed the help. Most of the officials were guys from the previous game (one player from each team would officiate), YIKES! I spent most of my off time telling the officials to call something before someone gets hurt. Since there was no formal training, guys either didn't care, or spent too much time watching ball. I would be telling the ref's to get on top of this game and get into position. Nothing worse than a ref who plays ball, except a coach who ref's.

As a Ref:
I show up a few minutes early for my games and the game underway is a tight game. The table is a little slow after a made basket. The team that scored has a bench player screaming to get the score right. I tell the guy to calm down and give them a chance. He's ready to throw down then and there. Finally the team calms the guy down and we move on.

Now I have the next game. The first half went pretty well, everyone seems to have settled in to the flow. The second half we call a couple of early fouls on both teams (nothing different from the first half). A few minutes later players are chipping at us and each other. I blow my whistle and shout that "it is time for players to play and referees to referee. There will be no mixing of responsibilities." Play goes on for a few minutes and nothing really changes. After an obvious line call, some guy goes crazy. I blow my whistle and ask game management to deal with this. They were unwilling to do anything, so I gathered my belongings and left. I have not done a Church League game since.

[rotationslim]

The problem in LDS church ball is in part the badly behaved players, and/or inexperienced untrained referees, that is all true; However the deep root of the problem is "game management", or more broadly, league management.

Almost always the "High Councilman" (to non-LDS reader- a High Priest the old guys who govern church affairs, unpaid) over athletics always ends up being the guy they don't trust to run other things, so you almost always end up with a meek, non-strong leader. They are often left calling (another volunteer) to run the league, usually another weak, inefficient leader or a musclehead jock who does not value sportsmanship. The end result is that they are too afraid to kick out the offenders, or don't see a problem with a good fistfight now and then. So it just goes on and on... and never gets better.

Bad behaving players is a given, the problem is that they are not thrown out of the league for the game, or for the season, banned for lifetime.

It is simple math, If you keep tossing out the bad ones eventually you will have good ones left, and everyone can have fun.

But for some well intentioned, but missguided attempt to include "all", we keep letting the same jackasses ruin it for everyone else.

I took over our Stake program a few years ago, and have largely cleaned it up. I use a lot of education, which has turned the culture of the league into one that values sportsmanship, as a result there is significant peer pressure to behave. Make no mistake, we still play hard, even physical ball, I won't have any of that "we don't keep score" rubbish, we play, we play to win, and we play hard, we just act like gentlemen while we hammer each other.

I am not stupid enough to guarentee perfect behavior, but I do guarantee to my Stake President (local area leader) that offenders will be dealt with quickly and harshly (but fairly). A number of former athletes are no longer welcome in the gym, making it safer for the rest of us.

'nuff said, I am done, thanks for listening.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by BushRef
I will tell you what, Mormon church ball is something else!!! I grew up playin it, and don't mind me if I post my best ever story right here. We were playin this team that we just hated. They could never beat us and it just pissed em off. Well, one day we were playin, and there had been some pretty hard fouls. So one of the refs says, with about 3-4 minutes left in the game, "One more hard foul, and we're calling the game right where it is." Well, we were up by about 3-4 if I remember correctly, and they get a break away. My brother catches up and just slams the dude to the floor. Game over, and because we were ahead at that point. We won.

That being said, that is also where i got my start reffing. Did that on Saturday mornings while I was in college. Then I started doing rec leagues and high schoool ball once I graduated and had more time.

And I'll bet that your officiating isn't much better than your sportsmanship.

This is what I don't understand about Mormon sports - civility, and proper care and concern for others is absolutely not a part of the activitities. Competitive high school players have more maturity and show a much greater level of sportsmanship than I've seen in Mormon basketball.

And Mormons seem to be proud of this infantile history/attitude - brag about it, establish a website of the crimes, do it some more, physically beat the snot out of them, pick on the little kids, steal the ball from the invalid. Yeah baby! That there is a devoutly religious man. Dispicable is the only word I can come up with for it, without greater thought.

[rotationslim]

Let me put some of this in perspective:

Mormons are generally known as decent, hardworking upstanding citizens. It is very out of character for the bad behaviour on the court. Some speculate it is the one outlet when we can let our "natural man" out. Maybe there is some truth to that.. I don't know.

To address some of your points:
No my officiating is not any better than the sportsmanship. More to the point it is no better than the level of play either (which I would say could beat a good HS JV team, but would lose to a decent Varsity HS team). We don't pay officials, so we use volunteers. We get what we pay for.

No one is proud of our missbehavior, many good men are ashamed of their fellow Mormons. However, as I alluded to in my post, it is just not as important as the other areas of the church that need governance, so it becomes a stepchild, and not well run. I can't say I would put my best guy on running the basketball program, I'd put him on looking after the spirtual welfare of the flock, or seeing that widows are cared for, etc.

Also, part of the problem is that Mormons typically have this ingrained notion that every soul is valued, and everyone can improve, and no one should ever be given up on. That works when you are trying to help men be better fathers, or helping teens navigate through the typical teen trauma, but it is not a good model for dealing with 45 year old fat white guys who are trying to re-live high school basketball glory. We just need to learn to send them away! And the official policy manuals now make it very clear that that is in fact what should be done.

The website is actually a publicity stunt for a movie coming out called "Church Ball". The movie is by a couple of filmmakers who make films who take good natured jabs at Mormon culture. They are funny, and I am dying to see the movie when it comes out.

And I might add in our defense, basketball, for whatever reason, is a big part of the Mormon tradition, every church built has a court, and in most cases it is used 3 or 4 nights a week. With nearly 9 million members, that is a lot of ball, and of course the good tempered games never get attention, just the few jackasses who cause serious problems are remembered.

In the end it is what it is, we are what we are, see us in all our glory, warts and all. Keep in mind, the end goal of the Mormon Church is to help members improve spiritually, and the ball is just a sideshow, a sideshow that is often poorly managed.

[ref18]

And let the thread of personal attacks begin

[DownTownTonyBrown]

But here is my point... at least the one to which you took offense.

If you don't have a strong sense of good sportsmanship you won't make a good, impartial official.

Quoted from bushref:
"playin this team that we just hated. They could never beat us and it just pissed em off. Well, one day we were playin, and there had been some pretty hard fouls. So one of the refs says, with about 3-4 minutes left in the game, "One more hard foul, and we're calling the game right where it is." Well, we were up by about 3-4 if I remember correctly, and they get a break away. My brother catches up and just slams the dude to the floor. Game over, and because we were ahead at that point. We won."

If you feel there is a group of people that you "just hate," you're not gonna make a good official because there will be teams that you will be officiating that you just hate/don't like... etc. You couldn't possibly be impartial.

If you feel it is cool to "piss 'em off," you're not gonna be a good official. They are going to feel your lack of impartiality.

If you are participating as a player in a game where the referee feels compelled to say "One more hard foul, and we're calling the game right where it is," then I would say you do not show good sportsmanship and do not show respect for authority. If you don't have respect for authority, then people will not show respect for you, when you are in the authority position of being the game official.

If you think it is acceptable, to the point of bragging about your "best ever story" of how your brother committed a violent, flagrant foul, and instead of being immediately ejected (and possibly having the close game being forfeited), he emerges victorious cheering with you of how you "pissed 'em off" again, then I can't see how you would ever be a good official for a highly contested game. How would you rule on a similar situation where you were the official? You thought it was okay here, during your game.

Your braggadocio style displays more about you than you may think. Does Bushref possibly equate with bush league?

So I'm still willing to bet your officiating isn't much better than your sportsmanship.

I didn't write this as personal effrontery to you. I feel that ANYONE who has this kind of attitude needs to change, and change drastically, before they could possibly function as an impartial official.

Maybe I'm all wet and you are a Division I official, but I'm guessing NOT.

[Ref in PA]

As a player, I was knocked to the floor from a basketball thrown at the back of my head (by my own brother no less) who accused me of elbowing him - which I probably did after a two handed shove I received in the back.

The activity is used to "fellowship" less active members and non-members alike. There have been countless games with people of suspect morals. But as rotationslim said, the goal is to have a mixing activity for those who might not otherwise go to a church - and they certainly mix it up on occaision. The basic role of the ref (if present) is to determine who gets the ball when it goes out of bounds.

And, I have never seen a bigger bunch of whiners - except for a High School Alumni tournament - they were worse, but the police were present to prevent and physical entanglements.

[sleebo]

Sorry to interrupt all of the interesting exchanges between Downtown and Bushref, but I heard a talk given by Women's Final Four and WNBA official Lisa Mattingly last year in which she said that you always know you are in trouble if the two teams pray before the game. Sad, but true...

[lrpalmer3]

Originally posted by sleebo
Sorry to interrupt all of the interesting exchanges between Downtown and Bushref, but I heard a talk given by Women's Final Four and WNBA official Lisa Mattingly last year in which she said that you always know you are in trouble if the two teams pray before the game. Sad, but true...

I play in a "praying" league and I almost fell out of my chair laughing at Mattingly's quote. So true, so true.

[Bobby]

Here's a new one.

I'm running the timers for a pickup game between two churches in a friendly game, and there is a 30-second shot clock. Players called their own violations, two volunteer "officials" call out of bounds and timing questions. (The three-portable system uses a portable scoreboard on the scorer's table, and a set of NBA-grade game shot clocks on each end -- the device contains red lights so that if hearing impaired people play in church leagues, the lights would be used. After one year of play many players have praised the setup because the one center board / two game shot clock setup is easier for officials.)

The game is close at the end when controversy erupts, and in each case, the pastor of one church is the player victimised. First, a 10-second violation is called for failing to clear the ball in the backcourt. The shot clock shows "19" and I put two hands up to show the violation. The pastor complains about the 10-second violation.

But the second problem gets him steamed at me. The shot clock is winding down, and the players forget about the 30-second device. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. The players don't even see the clock, and the big red number registers "0". The buzzer for the shot clock goes off and the pastor is steamed in front of my face for the 30-second device.

It was heated and the game, thanks to the two defensive stops, runs into overtime. Sometimes calling your own fouls doesn't always work because the 10 and 30 second violations have to be called.