Time of Award

[ptman]

Fed Rules: Bases loaded, 0 out. Batter hits ball into the gap in right center. When the throw comes in from the outfield, batter-runner gets caught between second and third base in a run down. In the course of the run down, a thrown ball ends up lodged in the defensive player's uniform (or umpire's uniform). The award is two bases to the batter and runners. From what point is the award made: time of the pitch, or time of the throw?

[bobbybanaduck]

throw. the only time the award on a thrown ball is given from the time of pitch is when it's the first play by an infielder and all runners including the batter had not advanced at least one base.

[Gramps]

One base, time of throw.

http://www.cifccs.org/playoffs/Playi...0Revisions.pdf

[ptman]

Gramps said:
"One base, time of throw.

http://www.cifccs.org/playoffs/Playi...0Revisions.pdf"

Your link only references rule 5, which provides that lodging in a uniform is an immediate dead ball. Note also that your link refers to lodging in an offensive player's uniform, not a defensive player's uniform as in the post.

The base award for lodging in a uniform is in rule 8. Rule 8-3-3c clearly provides for a two base award for a thrown ball lodged in an umpire's or defensive player's uniform. A ball that lodges in an offensive player's uniform results in a one base award if the runner was attempting to advance. That means that a runner caught in a rundown who is returning to the last touched base (or a runner diving back to the bag on a pick-off) when the ball lodges in his shirt does not advance a base because he was not attempting to advance at the time of lodging.

But back to the original question: Is the two base award from the time of the throw? It only seems fair that it would be, but the summary tables in both rule 5 and 8 say that the award is from the time of the pitch. See Dead Ball Table in Rule 5, number 12 (page 37 in 2008 Rule Book); and Baserunning Awards Table in Rule 8, number 2 under "Two Bases" (page 53 in 2008 Rule Book).

Where in the rule book is the basis for ruling that the award is from the time of the throw, when these two summary tables both state that it is from the time of the pitch?

[BretMan]

You have me scratching my head.

There are two separate references to this ruling in the FED rule book and both say the award is from time of pitch.

For what reason do you think they mean anything other than what appears twice in print?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BretMan

You have me scratching my head.

There are two separate references to this ruling in the FED rule book and both say the award is from time of pitch.

For what reason do you think they mean anything other than what appears twice in print?

One of the references is the Baserunning Awards Table in 8-3. Note that the award is combined with "fair batted ball " lodging in a defensive player's uniform. That makes no sense to me.

Also, the reference conflicts with the statements in 8-5 about time of award.

So, my guess is that whoever added the table (it's relatively new -- 5 or 6 years?) was thinking of a routine "grounder to short, throw goes into F3's uniform" play, and not the OP in this thread.

(These are all 2007 references).

[Gramps]

Originally Posted by Gramps

One base, time of throw.

http://www.cifccs.org/playoffs/Playi...0Revisions.pdf

You are correct. My mistake.

How about this - the dead ball tables only cover a fairly hit ball lodging in a defensive player's uniform. It says nothing about a thrown ball. However, 8-3-3c suggests that a thrown ball lodging in the defensive player's uniform may become dead. The wording is not clear.

Also, under 8-3-3c the award is from time of pitch. I can't find anything in the 08 CB. I suggest that in this case, that the correct ruling is an umpire judgment based on where the play is. I would suggest that if a situation arose whereby a batter-runner had acquired third and was heading home in a rundown and a throw during the rundown got caught in the pitcher's uniform as he was taking a throw near home plate, it would not be fair to the runner to call a dead ball and send him back to second. I think this is one of those situations that is not specifically covered by the rule book and the umpire has to make a best judgment call on what is right and fair.

I'm open to any argument that seems legitimate and at the same time fair.

[bobbybanaduck]

it is covered in the rule book. when the throw gets lodged in the uniform it is dead. how did it get there? it was thrown. what is the award for a thrown ball that becomes dead? 2 bases time of throw unless it was the first play by an infielder, then it's 2 bases time of pitch. the fed people have their heads so far up their own arses creating all these TWP to put in their books it's ridiculous.

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

How about this - the dead ball tables only cover a fairly hit ball lodging in a defensive player's uniform. It says nothing about a thrown ball. However, 8-3-3c suggests that a thrown ball lodging in the defensive player's uniform may become dead. The wording is not clear.

Also, under 8-3-3c the award is from time of pitch. I can't find anything in the 08 CB. I suggest that in this case, that the correct ruling is an umpire judgment based on where the play is. I would suggest that if a situation arose whereby a batter-runner had acquired third and was heading home in a rundown and a throw during the rundown got caught in the pitcher's uniform as he was taking a throw near home plate, it would not be fair to the runner to call a dead ball and send him back to second. I think this is one of those situations that is not specifically covered by the rule book and the umpire has to make a best judgment call on what is right and fair.

I'm open to any argument that seems legitimate and at the same time fair.

You just hit a walk off home run!!!! (i just love that analogy)
Dont concern yourself with any reference to a batted ball because in the play you are dealing with, it is a THROWN ball, period. The rule book only states a 2 base penalty from time of pitch for a play being made on a batted ball.(say the ball goes into the outfielders uniform, or even the uniform of the first infielder that the outfielder has thrown to.) This logically concludes that this, a thrown ball, well beyond the play on the batted ball, would be a 2 base award from the time of throw that went into the uniform. (2 base seems a bit much in this circumstance, but so does 3 bases for a catcher touching a batted ball with his mask!!!) life is not always fair!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

it is covered in the rule book. when the throw gets lodged in the uniform it is dead. how did it get there? it was thrown. what is the award for a thrown ball that becomes dead? 2 bases time of throw unless it was the first play by an infielder, then it's 2 bases time of pitch. the fed people have their heads so far up their own arses creating all these TWP to put in their books it's ridiculous.

Please cite specific reference in rule book that says a thrown ball lodging in a defensive player's uniform is dead at all? It's not covered in 5-1-5 or 5-1-2 and what is in 8-3-3c I think only could be reasonably interpreted to mean on the first play.

As I said earlier - a batter hits a short line drive. F8 dives, ball goes under glove to wall. F9 retireves ball throws to F4 who relays to F2 who catches BR between 3B and home. F2 throws to F5 and chases BR towards where pitcher is now waiting for throw from F5 instead, throw from F5 gets caught in F1's jersey. Do you really think an umpire is going to send the BR back to SECOND BASE???? I think not. The 08 CB has no examples remotely similar.

Part of the problem with FED rules is that sometimes the sentences run on and on so long it's difficult to sort out the real intention of the rule.

[dash_riprock]

Bobby's logic sounds good to me.

Two from the time of throw. Score him.

[umpjong]

Please cite specific reference in rule book that says a thrown ball lodging in a defensive player's uniform is dead at all?

8-3-3 c clearly states "two base award if a batted or thrown ball becomes dead because of bouncing over or passing through a fence, or lodges in a defensive players or umpires equipment or uniform.

So dead ball give him two bases from throw!!!

Originally Posted by umpjong

8-3-3 c clearly states "two base award if a batted or thrown ball becomes dead because of bouncing over or passing through a fence, or lodges in a defensive players or umpires equipment or uniform.

So dead ball give him two bases from throw!!!

I'm not disagreeing -but the above statement can be interpreted in different ways.

The problem with the above is that this is the only place in the rule book that that associates a lodged ball in a defensive players uniform and an immediate (or delayed) dead ball. It's not mentioned in the dead ball tables, other than a batted ball (5-1-1)

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

How about this - the dead ball tables only cover a fairly hit ball lodging in a defensive player's uniform. It says nothing about a thrown ball.

Ah, but the "Baserunning Awards Table" does mention a thrown ball entering a defensive players uniform! It says the award is two bases from "time of pitch".

Frankly, I am shocked- SHOCKED!- that there is a glitch in the FED rule book!

Who knows what their true intent is here? The silver lining- when they offer conflicting rulings on the same play, the umpire can never be wrong! No matter which way you rule, you can point to whichever part of the book you need to prove your case. The flip side is that the other guy, if he know's his way around the rules, can just as easily prove you wrong.

Jeez, I hate ambiguity in the rule book!

Base awards, in general, are an estimate and a compromise. They are based on what "probably" would happen in a given situation. I can think of a handful of plays where the stated base award might rob the offense- and another handful where the offense comes out ahead.

Personally, for this play, I would prefer that the umpire had the right to kill the ball and award whichever base, or bases, he judges to negate the ball entering the uniform. Unfortunately, when working a game I don't get the luxury of making rules to fit my personal beliefs. When working a FED game I will enforce the FED rules exactly as they are intended.

If we could only figure out what the heck they intend for this one!