Award 1 or 2 Bases?

[jicecone]

Fed. Varsity game. R1, R2, first and second. B1 hits double. R1 & R2 score easily. Throw comes into catcher. Coaches insists that first runner misses home plate and wants catcher to go into dugout and tag the runner. (Why, because he is a experienced , knowledgeable varsity HS coach?)

Anyway, Catcher goes into dugout to tag runner. We have a dead ball carried into the dugout. What should the award be for the B1 that is now standing on second? 1 or 2 Bases? References would help.

[officialtony]

To spark some discussion, I will say that a throw from the outfield into dead ball territory is 2 base award from time of throw. Where was runner at the time of the throw? Add 2 bases. I will cite 8-3-3c2 as a reference and see what everybody else goes for ( probably my jugular ). My logic ? ( an oxymoron if I ever used one ). It was a throw to the catcher from the outfield. The result was a ball in the dugout ( carried in by catcher who caught the throw ). Dead ball, 2 bases from time of throw.
OK folks, have at me.

Side note. Would I have called time before the walk to the dugout to prevent this from becoming a dead ball? Preventative officiating or taking a stupid coach off the hook? Another possibility on the play. Food for thought.

[aevans410]

According to the baserunning award table, none.


Two bases for intentional catch and carry from time of pitch (runners only).

[mcrowder]

Anytime a fielder has possession of the ball, and leaves the field of play, it's one base. Treat this exactly as you would an outfielder who made a catch, took a couple of steps, and tumbled over a low outfield wall into dead ball territory.

[aevans410]

That award is from TOP, Would you still award a base to R2?

For doing something that stupid, I'd really like award it, but according to the book (unless I'm missing something) we can't.

[jicecone]

Tony,

The officials reply to calling time was, "I would have also reviewed all the rules on this before the game, had I known something wierd like this was going to take place". He agreed, but that didn't change what happened.

He awarded one base as I would have also, however, we are trying to substantiate the call with a rule or case study.

[Carbide Keyman]

Just to add fuel to this brush fire. And for the benefit of full disclosure, I probably would have awarded two bases, what if, once the ball is put back in play, the coach appeals that the first runner missed and umpire calls runner out. With two outs, no run(s) score, with one out, second runner scores. Right?

[officialtony]

aevans410 and mcrowder,
could you give me the rule reference you are citing?
I am confused. I couldn't find any rule that coincided with your statements. I like the theory, but want to cite rules to support the theory. Please give me FED rule numbers.

jiceone. I wasn't criticizng your post or decisions. It was more thought provoking questions to see if it impacted what did or could happen. I don't know what I would have done " right away " other than confer with my partner to come up with a decision on what we would do as a result of the actions of the catcher. It's easy to make decisions now - after the fact.


How is it an easy game like baseball comes up with these not-so-easy-to-deal-with situations?

Anyway, I am with jiceone. I would like some FED references to support any statements made regarding these posts.

Thanks to all.

[aevans410]

Herein lies the problem. There isn't one.

We're talking about carrying the ball into dead ball territory, which is 5-1-1i. This actually deals with a batted ball, but its the only reference to carrying a ball into DBT that I saw.

Its the closest thing to this particular play I could find.

[officialtony]

aevans410,
I understand the dilema for finding a rule to cover this.
That is why I thought 8-3-32 might ( although it could be considered a reach to reality ) be a reference.
It says, in part " Each runner is awarded . . two bases if a fair batted or thrown ball . . . . goes into a stand for spectators, dugout or player's bench . . and it is not thrown by a pitcher from his plate . . " . Now I understand that is a stretch, but in our post, it was thrown by an outfielder to the catcher who ultimately carried it into the dugout ( dead ball territory ). Is this the rule to cover the situation? I sure don't know. But I'll take any help I can get on this one.
Bob Jenkins where are you ?
Help.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by officialtony
aevans410 and mcrowder,
could you give me the rule reference you are citing?
I am confused. I couldn't find any rule that coincided with your statements. I like the theory, but want to cite rules to support the theory. Please give me FED rule numbers.

jiceone. I wasn't criticizng your post or decisions. It was more thought provoking questions to see if it impacted what did or could happen. I don't know what I would have done " right away " other than confer with my partner to come up with a decision on what we would do as a result of the actions of the catcher. It's easy to make decisions now - after the fact.


How is it an easy game like baseball comes up with these not-so-easy-to-deal-with situations?

Anyway, I am with jiceone. I would like some FED references to support any statements made regarding these posts.

Thanks to all.

Tony,

It was never taken as criticisim however, I think everyone is begining to see the problem with supporting documentation, that I found. The closest thing I have found to date is in BRD pg 39 Sest. 41. "Note 58:BRD recommends: Treat a pitch the same as a throw". Its rules references somewhat confuse me though.

[aevans410]

It's no more of a stretch than the intentional/unintentional catch and carry is. I think the difference were dealing with is player control.

In your situation, the ball goes out of play due to a lack of player control, in my situation, player control exists.

I'd be interested to hear Carl's, Tee's or Bob J's thoughts on this though.

[LMan]

original post said we have a DEAD ball carried into the dugout. A dead ball carried into DBT? If the ball was already dead, so what? You can throw an already- dead ball into the concession stand, and theres no penalty. I dont get this at all.

[mcrowder]

I would too.

Looking through the various rules, I cannot find this EXACT scenario supported in any way. However, we are charged with enacting "fairness" when possible. We can't make the awards based on TOT from the outfielder, as the catcher obtaining possession ended that "play".

I think in this sitch, we are forced to fall back on the God rule, and "make a ruling on a play not covered by the rulebook."

In other rulesets, a ball carried out of play is a 1-base award from the TODB (reference a player catching the ball and then going over a wall). Sans a rule in this particular rulebook, I would be tempted to go for consistency here, and award 1 base from when the catcher left the field of play.

[aevans410]

I'm pretty sure J meant that the ball became dead once he carried it into the dugout. If the ball was already dead, all we have in FED is a dead ball appeal.