Pitcher taking signals.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Again, Mark, It's a judgment call as to whether or not the umpire feels that F1 leaning in to take his signs while not in contact is part of his preliminary motion to pitch. If we feel that it is, then Article 5 of FED rule 6 allows for a balk to be called. It's not the straddling of the rubber that's the problem. It's the pitcher leaning in simulating he's on the rubber that's at issue. Based on the situation your presented about your son, I would agree that there was nothing to support the umpire's decision to put a stop to it. But, had your son leaned in, I could see a balk being called.



Tim.

My bad, I quoted the wrong post. Read what I said in my earlier post and it applies here. Where does the words preliminary motion appear in any rule? Poorly written rules and posts only add to the legacy of mistaken identity. When you give an uneducated guess and believe it to be true, you start others to believe. Then it becomes an epidemic. Soon, many are infected with the virus.

I know how the rule should be properly interpreted. You've pretty much butchered it all to heck, whether you believe it or not.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by GarthB

No, he didn't change the play...you didn't read what you reponded to, even though you "quoted" it in your post.



Then you wrote:




I think you were just too eager to dismiss anything I may have written.

Garth:

He most certainly did change the play. In all of my posting in this thread no where did I ever discuss a play where the pitcher while in contact with the pitcher's plate is allowed to throw the ball to first baseball without stepping toward first base. That is a completely different play and is a balk if the pitcher does not step toward first base while making throw.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I know you are convinced I'm an idiot, but...

Excuse me?

You allow, in FED, FI, IN CONTACT with the rubber, to throw to first without stepping off or stepping to the base?

I know your sympathies lie with the pitcher, but, c'mon.

FED 6-4-2

If there is a runner or runners, any of the following acts by a pitcher while he is touching the pitching plate, is a balk:

(b) failing to step with the non-pivot footdirectly toward a base (occupied or unoccupied) when throwing or feinting there in an attempt to put out, or drive back a runner....

You may consider me wrong in three states. I'm convinced you're wrong in 48.

Wow.

Garth:

What does this play have to do with the original play? Of course the play you just described in the post that I am quoting is this post is a balk, but has nothing to do with the play in my original post to start this thread. Your new play has nothing to do with the original play.

MTD, Sr.

[NFump]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

My bad, I quoted the wrong post. Read what I said in my earlier post and it applies here. Where does the words preliminary motion appear in any rule? Poorly written rules and posts only add to the legacy of mistaken identity. When you give an uneducated guess and believe it to be true, you start others to believe. Then it becomes an epidemic. Soon, many are infected with the virus.

I know how the rule should be properly interpreted. You've pretty much butchered it all to heck, whether you believe it or not.

That would be 8.01b in OBR.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Garth:

What does this play have to do with the original play? Of course the play you just described in the post that I am quoting is this post is a balk, but has nothing to do with the play in my original post to start this thread. Your new play has nothing to do with the original play.

MTD, Sr.

Wow. You just can't admit you made a mistake.

I posted that play in repsonse to a suggestion that a pitcher couldn't "fling" the ball without stepping.

And you responded to THAT SPECIFIC PLAY, even quoting it and telling me that I called it wrong. See your post #98

It has nothing to do with the original play. It has everything to do with you saying that it was wrong to call it a balk, when indeed, it is a balk.

jicecone, who you also dismissed, was referring to my post not the original post. He too seemed aghast that you suggested in your post #98 that a pitcher in contact could throw to first without stepping toward the base.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Garth:

He most certainly did change the play.

No he didn't. I did and he was responding to that.

In all of my posting in this thread no where did I ever discuss a play where the pitcher while in contact with the pitcher's plate is allowed to throw the ball to first baseball without stepping toward first base.

Yes, you did. Post #98. Read it carefully.

That is a completely different play and is a balk if the pitcher does not step toward first base while making throw.

Well, Duh! That is the point I made before you chimed in and said it wasn't a balk.

Reading is fundamental. Haste makes waste. Never Assume.

Pick one. They all seem to apply.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by NFump

That would be 8.01b in OBR.

Why bring an OBR rule to a FED rule discussion?

Would you bring a knife to a gun fight?

[NFump]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

My bad, I quoted the wrong post. Read what I said in my earlier post and it applies here. Where does the words preliminary motion appear in any rule? Poorly written rules and posts only add to the legacy of mistaken identity. When you give an uneducated guess and believe it to be true, you start others to believe. Then it becomes an epidemic. Soon, many are infected with the virus.

I know how the rule should be properly interpreted. You've pretty much butchered it all to heck, whether you believe it or not.

Your question is right above. I've emphasized the pertinent word.

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Why bring an OBR rule to a FED rule discussion?

Would you bring a knife to a gun fight?

You asked for "any" rule.

When you know the opponent's gun in unloaded (not to mention the fact that he holds it upside down and backwards), yes. I believe you just got stabbed (multiple times ).

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Are you unable or just unwilling to recognize that the preliminary motion to pitch is the part of a motion naturally associated with the pitch. I'm many things, Wayne, but uneducated on the rules of the game isn't among them.


Tim.

There are a great number of umpires who do not recognize preliminary motions as part of the motion... hence the term preliminary, which means before. If it's preliminary, then by definition, it's not part of.

The basis for this belief stems from the comment in the book that the pitching regulations do not begin until the pitcher steps on the rubber. It's not a matter of stupidity or ignorance to be on this side of the argument.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I reread your play. You said originally that F1 took signs while straddling the rubber. Now you said he was in contact. Which is it?

Either way, if no quick pitch was involved, it's a "don't do that." (regardless of what the "rule" says.) Send F2 out to the mound to tell Bozo to take his signs from on the rubber so everyone will be happy campers. Sometimes I'll just tell the catcher not to give the pitcher his sign until he gets on the rubber, and usually F1 gets the hint.

Like Ozzy said, I don't see when the catcher gives the sign, nor do I care if he did or didn't get a sign at all, as long as he doesn't just step on the rubber quickly and quick pitch the batter.

I like the way the ASA (Amateur Softball Association) addresses this. It says that the pitcher must be in contact with the rubber and "appear" to be getting signs from the catcher. Essentially, there must be some kind of pause once the pitcher engages the rubber. Obviously, this is to prevent a quick pitch.

The umpire needn't concern himself when, or if, the pitcher is getting the signal from the catcher, as long as there is the appearance of getting a sign.

I would apply the same philosophy to baseball. As long as there is a reasonable pause once the pitcher engages the rubber - I don't really care WHEN or IF he gets signals. No quick pitch ... no violation.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

There are a great number of umpires who do not recognize preliminary motions as part of the motion... hence the term preliminary, which means before. If it's preliminary, then by definition, it's not part of.

The basis for this belief stems from the comment in the book that the pitching regulations do not begin until the pitcher steps on the rubber. It's not a matter of stupidity or ignorance to be on this side of the argument.

Before assuming Set Position, the pitcher may elect to make any natural preliminary motion such as that known as “the stretch.” But if he so elects, he shall come to Set Position before delivering the ball to the batter.

Are you saying there are a great number of umpires who do not recognize the stretch as part of a pitchers motion to pitch? If the pitching regulations begin only when the pitcher is engaged on the rubber, the constraints found in article 5 are worthless. I'll argue till I'm blue in the face that the pitching regulations must begin before the pitcher toes the rubber. Otherwise, straddling the rubber without the ball could never be called a balk.


Tim.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Before assuming Set Position, the pitcher may elect to make any natural preliminary motion such as that known as “the stretch.” But if he so elects, he shall come to Set Position before delivering the ball to the batter.

Are you saying there are a great number of umpires who do not recognize the stretch as part of a pitchers motion to pitch? If the pitching regulations begin only when the pitcher is engaged on the rubber, the constraints found in article 5 are worthless. I'll argue till I'm blue in the face that the pitching regulations must begin before the pitcher toes the rubber. Otherwise, straddling the rubber without the ball could never be called a balk.


Tim.

I agree, Tim.

The regulations certainly do begin before the pitcher engages the rubber. There are three balks that can be committed by the pitcher that have nothing to do with his being in contact with the rubber. And, another infraction that can occur before the pitcher ever engages the rubber.

8.05(g) It is a balk if ... "the pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher’s plate."

8.05(h) It is a balk if ... "the pitcher unnecessarily delays the game." (no requirement to be engaged with the rubber.)

8.05(i) It is a balk if ... "the pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher’s plate or while off the plate, he feints a pitch."

Also ...

8.04 "When the bases are unoccupied, the pitcher shall deliver the ball to the batter within 12 seconds after he receives the ball. Each time the pitcher delays the game by violating this rule, the umpire shall call 'Ball'."

8.04 isn't a balk, but it is a pitching violation that has absolutely nothing with the pitcher being engaged with the rubber.

The pitching regulations certainly do begin before rubber engagement.

The FED rulebook makes a comment about pitching regulations beginning at rubber engagement and then goes on to list several infractions that do not involve rubber engagement.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Before assuming Set Position, the pitcher may elect to make any natural preliminary motion such as that known as “the stretch.” But if he so elects, he shall come to Set Position before delivering the ball to the batter.

Are you saying there are a great number of umpires who do not recognize the stretch as part of a pitchers motion to pitch? If the pitching regulations begin only when the pitcher is engaged on the rubber, the constraints found in article 5 are worthless. I'll argue till I'm blue in the face that the pitching regulations must begin before the pitcher toes the rubber. Otherwise, straddling the rubber without the ball could never be called a balk.


Tim.

You're only arguing against yourself with this tidbit. What your attempting to do, is maintain that the pitcher must take his stretch before he comes to the set position. In reality, all the pitcher has to do is step on the rubber, and without a stretch, throw to the plate. All you have confirmed is that the pitcher is allowed a stop in his motion to the plate. As long as the pitcher doesn't quick pitch, he has broken no rule. You're trying to read more into this than necessary.

The only reason they have rules against being on the mound without the ball is because it is deceiving to the runners(s). Runner(s) are looking at the pitcher watching for what he may do, and then they are tagged out by an infielder. The rules are spelled out so the runner(s) can know what to expect from a pitcher. They know that when a pitcher climbs up the mound and straddles the rubber, he has possession of the ball.

See how simple all this is.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

You're only arguing against yourself with this tidbit. What your attempting to do, is maintain that the pitcher must take his stretch before he comes to the set position.

But the portion of the rule he quotes says the pitcher may make a preliminary motion, known as the stretch.

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

In reality, all the pitcher has to do is step on the rubber, and without a stretch, throw to the plate.

Well, it's not quite that simple - but almost.

He must bring his hands together before delivering to the plate. That is a requirement for both the Set and Wind-up position. If pitching from the Set position, there is the additional requirement that the pitcher come to a complete stop once his hands come together.

When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position.

Even if the pitcher has his hands separated (which is common) while assuming the wind-up position, he must, at some time before delivering the ball to the batter, bring his hands together - even if it's just part of his winding up motion.

If the pitcher toes the rubber as if to pitch from the wind-up position - has his hands separated - and then, from that position, just chucks the ball to his catcher - that would be illegal.

Set Position shall be indicated by the pitcher when he stands facing the batter with his pivot foot in contact with, and his other foot in front of, the pitcher’s plate, holding the ball in both hands in front of his body and coming to a complete stop.

If the pitcher toes the rubber as if to pitch from the set position - has his hands separated (which is required) - and then, from that position, just chucks the ball to his catcher - that would be illegal.

I'll tell you where this comes up; when a runner on 3rd makes an early break for the plate before the pitcher has begun his delivery.

If the pitcher toes the rubber as if to pitch from the wind-up and is taking the sign with his hands already together (which many pitchers do) - he can just chuck the ball home and this would be completely legal. It would also be considered a PITCH.

If this same pitcher has his hands separated while taking his sign (equally common) - he can just chuck the ball home as long as he brings his hands together in the process. But if he keeps them separated while throwing home - then it would be illegal because he failed to meet the minimum requirements of a wind-up delivery as stated in OBR 8.01.

A pitcher who toes the rubber as if to pitch from the set position must first bring his hands together and stop before throwing to the catcher - even if it's in reaction to a stealing runner from 3rd. Of course, the thing to do is step off. Then all bets are off. But some pitchers overreact to a stealing runner and a balk is very common - especially in youth leagues where the pitchers do not have the savvy to react calmly to this situation.

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

All you have confirmed is that the pitcher is allowed a stop in his motion to the plate. As long as the pitcher doesn't quick pitch, he has broken no rule. You're trying to read more into this than necessary.

Well, there is a little more to assuming a legal set or wind-up position than simply not quick pitching the batter. That is not the only standard.

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

The only reason they have rules against being on the mound without the ball is because it is deceiving to the runners(s). Runner(s) are looking at the pitcher watching for what he may do, and then they are tagged out by an infielder. The rules are spelled out so the runner(s) can know what to expect from a pitcher. They know that when a pitcher climbs up the mound and straddles the rubber, he has possession of the ball.

Let's say the pitcher has possession of the ball. Places his pivot foot in close proximity to the rubber, but not on it. He peers in and gets his sign. He comes set ...

What's this?

It's a balk! And he never even touched the rubber.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Let's say the pitcher has possession of the ball. Places his pivot foot in close proximity to the rubber, but not on it. He peers in and gets his sign. He comes set ...

What's this?

It's a balk! And he never even touched the rubber.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

It's a balk when he comes set - which is simulating the beginning of his pitching motion - while not on the rubber. It was not a balk when he just peered in to get his sign.