Pitcher taking signals.

[ozzy6900]

I do not know when F1 is getting his signs from F2, nor do I care! The rules (under all 3 codes) are there to prevent F1 from quick pitching to the batter.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

I do not know when F1 is getting his signs from F2, nor do I care! The rules (under all 3 codes) are there to prevent F1 from quick pitching to the batter.

Ozzy:

Reread my original play. F1 did not quick pitch. F1 took signals from F2 while in contact with the rubber before starting his pitching motion. How is this quick pitching?

MTD, Sr.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Ozzy:

Reread my original play. F1 did not quick pitch. F1 took signals from F2 while in contact with the rubber before starting his pitching motion. How is this quick pitching?

MTD, Sr.

I reread your play. You said originally that F1 took signs while straddling the rubber. Now you said he was in contact. Which is it?

Either way, if no quick pitch was involved, it's a "don't do that." (regardless of what the "rule" says.) Send F2 out to the mound to tell Bozo to take his signs from on the rubber so everyone will be happy campers. Sometimes I'll just tell the catcher not to give the pitcher his sign until he gets on the rubber, and usually F1 gets the hint.

Like Ozzy said, I don't see when the catcher gives the sign, nor do I care if he did or didn't get a sign at all, as long as he doesn't just step on the rubber quickly and quick pitch the batter.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I reread your play. You said originally that F1 took signs while straddling the rubber. Now you said he was in contact. Which is it?

Either way, if no quick pitch was involved, it's a "don't do that." (regardless of what the "rule" says.) Send F2 out to the mound to tell Bozo to take his signs from on the rubber so everyone will be happy campers. Sometimes I'll just tell the catcher not to give the pitcher his sign until he gets on the rubber, and usually F1 gets the hint.

Like Ozzy said, I don't see when the catcher gives the sign, nor do I care if he did or didn't get a sign at all, as long as he doesn't just step on the rubber quickly and quick pitch the batter.

Play: R1 and the F1 stradles the rubber with the ball in his pitching hand and looks at F2 who gives him some pitching signals. F1 then engages the rubber and again takes pitching signals from F2. Has F1 committed a balk?

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Play: R1 and the F1 stradles the rubber with the ball in his pitching hand and looks at F2 who gives him some pitching signals. F1 then engages the rubber and again takes pitching signals from F2. Has F1 committed a balk?

Define "signals"

To trick the umps, they used to have F2 squat and give the signs by his posture. A double squat bounce, turn in or out of glove = key, a shrug, a shoulder turn, closed glove = curve, open = fast, tug the mask = .....

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Play: R1 and the F1 straddles the rubber with the ball in his pitching hand and looks at F2 who gives him some pitching signals. F1 then engages the rubber and again takes pitching signals from F2. Has F1 committed a balk?

Mark, certainly not a balk.

As others have said, the tradition of enforcement of this rule (for FED and otherwise) has been to
1. recognize that the underlying rationale of the rule is to prevent a quick pitch, which would be an illegal pitch (and a balk with runners on); and
2. ignore infractions unless the opposition complains, in which case instruct the pitcher ("don't do that") and, if absolutely necessary, eject for failing to follow instructions (though I can't imagine myself ever actually ejecting for this).

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I reread your play. You said originally that F1 took signs while straddling the rubber. Now you said he was in contact. Which is it?

Either way, if no quick pitch was involved, it's a "don't do that." (regardless of what the "rule" says.) Send F2 out to the mound to tell Bozo to take his signs from on the rubber so everyone will be happy campers. Sometimes I'll just tell the catcher not to give the pitcher his sign until he gets on the rubber, and usually F1 gets the hint.

Like Ozzy said, I don't see when the catcher gives the sign, nor do I care if he did or didn't get a sign at all, as long as he doesn't just step on the rubber quickly and quick pitch the batter.

Steve,
When are you going to hit him with a balk - when he takes signs while off the rubber - OK, but I'm not sure that's great management. Denucci goes on to say that once F1 is on the rubber, he takes signs from F2. From my standpoint, I don't really care what he does off the rubber in this case, I do care what he does while on the rubber. Granted, this is coming from someone who is primarily softball - so many nuances are lost - but I think that in this case, I only care what happens when he is on the rubber.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Steve,
When are you going to hit him with a balk - when he takes signs while off the rubber - OK, but I'm not sure that's great management. Denucci goes on to say that once F1 is on the rubber, he takes signs from F2. From my standpoint, I don't really care what he does off the rubber in this case, I do care what he does while on the rubber. Granted, this is coming from someone who is primarily softball - so many nuances are lost - but I think that in this case, I only care what happens when he is on the rubber.

I never said I would hit him with a balk at all for taking signs off the rubber. I said that only if he quick pitched the batter would I have a balk. I don't care if he gets a sign or doesn't get a sign personally. If someone complains about the pitcher taking his signs while off the rubber, I will instruct the catcher to go out and explain the rule to the pitcher so he just does it right and everybody is happy. I, as the umpire, couldn't really care less as long as F1 doesn't quick pitch the batter.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I never said I would hit him with a balk at all for taking signs off the rubber. I said that only if he quick pitched the batter would I have a balk. I don't care if he gets a sign or doesn't get a sign personally. If someone complains about the pitcher taking his signs while off the rubber, I will instruct the catcher to go out and explain the rule to the pitcher so he just does it right and everybody is happy. I, as the umpire, couldn't really care less as long as F1 doesn't quick pitch the batter.

Steve,
I tend to tread very lightly when I speak baseball - I'm a softball type who does some baseball. But,
"If someone complains about the pitcher taking his signs while off the rubber, I will instruct the catcher to go out and explain the rule to the pitcher so he just does it right and everybody is happy."
Again, if F1 is taking signs from F2 while on the rubber, I am fat dumb, & happy. I don't care what happen prior to that.. But if F1 toes the rubber & goes, I've got a call to make. If that's what we're both saying, than please excuse my ignorance...

I hate fat fingers - and having to go back late & correct them.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I reread your play. You said originally that F1 took signs while straddling the rubber. Now you said he was in contact. Which is it?

Either way, if no quick pitch was involved, it's a "don't do that." (regardless of what the "rule" says.) Send F2 out to the mound to tell Bozo to take his signs from on the rubber so everyone will be happy campers. Sometimes I'll just tell the catcher not to give the pitcher his sign until he gets on the rubber, and usually F1 gets the hint.

Like Ozzy said, I don't see when the catcher gives the sign, nor do I care if he did or didn't get a sign at all, as long as he doesn't just step on the rubber quickly and quick pitch the batter.

I like the way the ASA (Amateur Softball Association) addresses this. It says that the pitcher must be in contact with the rubber and "appear" to be getting signs from the catcher. Essentially, there must be some kind of pause once the pitcher engages the rubber. Obviously, this is to prevent a quick pitch.

The umpire needn't concern himself when, or if, the pitcher is getting the signal from the catcher, as long as there is the appearance of getting a sign.

I would apply the same philosophy to baseball. As long as there is a reasonable pause once the pitcher engages the rubber - I don't really care WHEN or IF he gets signals. No quick pitch ... no violation.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I like the way the ASA (Amateur Softball Association) addresses this. It says that the pitcher must be in contact with the rubber and "appear" to be getting signs from the catcher. The umpire needn't concern himself when, or if, the pitcher is getting the signal from the catcher, as long as there is the appearance of getting a sign.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

There is no way that you can define "appearance".

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by fitump56

There is no way that you can define "appearance".

Sure there is! If, in the umpire's judgment, the pitcher paused long enough (as if to get signs from the catcher), he satisfies the requirement.

In other words, the pitcher steps on the rubber, faces his catcher, then delivers the pitch. Fine!

After all, how do you define a "quick pitch?"

What is too quick? How can you categorically determine that the batter is NOT ready? These are all judgment calls.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by fitump56
There is no way that you can define "appearance".

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Sure there is! If, in the umpire's judgment, the pitcher paused long enough (as if to get signs from the catcher), he satisfies the requirement.

Congrats, David, you have well defined the term "appearance" but incorrectly applied it, imo. We have no way of knowing what the true signals are, where they come from, etc. But we do have the judgment that if a pitcher makes certain time and trued movements that we can subjectively call this a "taking signs". As you know, savvy coaches in MFS teach not to "peer" in or bend over, this allows for levels of uncertainty in making the "appearance" decision.

As the level of ball increases in both ability and intelligent play, it can become very problematic to rely on "appearance", best not to rely on anything then. Happily, better plyers don't play with such foolish intentions, eh?

In other words, the pitcher steps on the rubber, faces his catcher, then delivers the pitch. Fine!

After all, how do you define a "quick pitch?"

"Quick pitching" has never been a difficult call ime. F1's need to respect that Bs have certain leisures in preparing to hit, Ps have certain rythyms, all must dance together. If this rythym is purposefully violated, and in upper levels of ball it isn't often, then we have a QP.

What is too quick? How can you categorically determine that the batter is NOT ready? These are all judgment calls.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

They are but not difficult ones. It comes out of the flow of the game, you know this, it is a feel for things. I have never had problems with QPitching, the rythym of the F1-B is natural to ballplayers.

F1s with intellect know that upsetting that rythym is plain dumb. That is because ex-ballplaying umpires call B-Ss using the same rythyms, don't we?

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Ozzy:

Reread my original play. F1 did not quick pitch. F1 took signals from F2 while in contact with the rubber before starting his pitching motion. How is this quick pitching?

MTD, Sr.

Sigh! Here, Mark, I'll do a cut and paste for you.......

NFHS Rules only for now.

R6-S1-A1 states that: He [the pitcher] shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate.

Play: R1 and the F1 stradles the rubber with the ball in his pitching hand and looks at F2 who gives him some pitching signals. F1 then engages the rubber and again takes pitching signals from F2. Has F1 committed a balk?

MTD, Sr.

I have no more time for this!

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

I do not know when F1 is getting his signs from F2, nor do I care! The rules (under all 3 codes) are there to prevent F1 from quick pitching to the batter.

Okay, so I fibbed. Onen more.

Ozzy, what's so mysterious about BU in B or C seeing F1 leaning in to take signs when not in contact with the rubber? Are you assuming that the PU would be doing this?