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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 21, 2007, 01:15pm
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Voluntary Release Play...

I'm in B, runners on 1st and 3rd. Double steal. F6 makes a good tag on R1 and then turns to face towards 3rd base so he can quickly throw home if neccessary.

I see a good tag, a bit of possession, and start to come up from my set with an OUT call. However, the next thing I see is the ball in the legs of the runner who is lying on the ground. I call SAFE emphatically and point at the ground. Here comes manager and assisstant to the foul line to yell (thats a whole different story but I'm convinced that no umpire in my association puts assistants in their place).

They want me to go to PU for help (yelling at me from the foul line), saying the drop was on the transfer (I don't care about the assisstant but the manager wanted it). I simply shake my head, that I'm not going for help. My partner talks them off the field, while I'm simply staring at the manager from my position.

I was looking at F6's back when his hands started to come together. I never saw the ball come out of his glove at any point, I just saw it rolling on the ground. My other piece of evidence was that the ball didn't come "flying out", as it typically does when a ball is dropped on a transfer.

So, given this information (or lack of information), would you call out or safe? Also, would you go to your partner for help on a play that is right in front of you when asked?

I think I may have missed it, but I had no view of it, either way.

Thanks.
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Old Sat Jul 21, 2007, 01:28pm
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I would think if it was dropped on the pull, you would have seen it come loose. Of course they are going to try to get an out, that goes in thier favor.
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Old Sat Jul 21, 2007, 06:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TussAgee11
I was looking at F6's back when his hands started to come together. I never saw the ball come out of his glove at any point, I just saw it rolling on the ground. My other piece of evidence was that the ball didn't come "flying out", as it typically does when a ball is dropped on a transfer.

So, given this information (or lack of information), would you call out or safe? Also, would you go to your partner for help on a play that is right in front of you when asked?
From what you describe "when his hands started to come together"... followed by "saw it rolling on the ground", sounds like a SAFE to me.

And I would NEVER ask for PU help on a play at 2B right in front of me.
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Old Sun Jul 22, 2007, 09:24pm
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Remember that the fielder's need to make a quick play elsewhere is no reason to rush your call. The runner's just as out or safe whether you call it fast or slow, and if you get the timing right chances are that you'll see this play correctly.

Nobody here can tell you whether the runner was out or safe. Learn from the experience and you'll be better next time.

And, I would never go to partner on this call.
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Last edited by mbyron; Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 09:27pm.
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Old Sun Jul 22, 2007, 09:41pm
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I guess my real question is, in regard to voluntary release... can you call what you don't see?

I never saw the hands come together and never saw voluntary release, so can I call it? Where does the "benefit of the doubt" go in this situation?
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Old Sun Jul 22, 2007, 09:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TussAgee11
Also, would you go to your partner for help on a play that is right in front of you when asked?

I think I may have missed it, but I had no view of it, either way.
No view = ask partner.
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Old Mon Jul 23, 2007, 06:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TussAgee11
I guess my real question is, in regard to voluntary release... can you call what you don't see?

I never saw the hands come together and never saw voluntary release, so can I call it? Where does the "benefit of the doubt" go in this situation?
I understood your question, but I was trying to look at the larger picture. Why is there any "doubt" in this situation? Presumably because you were moving ahead of the play and not focused on what you should have been seeing.

You saw a "bit of possession" and then the ball on the ground? How did that happen? You missed something crucial here, and there should be no "benefit of the doubt" in this situation.

But perhaps your question is: how to handle the mistake? Make the best call you can given what you saw. Often that's the expected call: if the ball's on the ground when the dust settled, how are you going to call that runner out? You can't sell the "dropped on transfer" because you didn't see it.

Don't call what you don't see, but make sure you see the whole play next time.
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Old Mon Jul 23, 2007, 06:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitump56
No view = ask partner.
No way do you go to your partner on this play.

Read the OP, what is your partner looking at? He is watching the runner on 3rd not your tag play at 2nd. I've got an out at 2nd, you've got to demonstrate some control and voluntary release on the tag play. The ball is on the ground, no control or voluntary release or the ball wouldn't be on the ground.
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Old Mon Jul 23, 2007, 07:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TussAgee11
I guess my real question is, in regard to voluntary release... can you call what you don't see?

I never saw the hands come together and never saw voluntary release, so can I call it? Where does the "benefit of the doubt" go in this situation?
It's up to the fielder to demonstrate a legal tag. He didn't. Safe.
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Old Mon Jul 23, 2007, 08:15am
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Quote:
=TussAgee11]

I see a good tag, a bit of possession, and start to come up from my set with an OUT call. However, the next thing I see is the ball in the legs of the runner who is lying on the ground. I call SAFE emphatically and point at the ground.
What does "bit of possession" mean" ? Either the fielder demonstrated possession or he didn't and that's your judgement.

Sounds like you didn't "allow the entire" play to go to it's conclusion. From the "strict" reading of what happened, I have a Safe call. Also, did you take your eyes off the play at any time?

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Old Mon Jul 23, 2007, 06:44pm
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I didn't take my eyes off the play, which is the only reason I saw the ball on the ground in the first place.

The problem was I was in B and as the fielder pivoted to make a potential throw home I was looking at his back. Therefore, if and when his hands came together, and the ball was being transferred, I would have missed it. To me it seemed odd that I would have that happen, and never see the ball on its way to the ground, unless his legs were blocking me out of that.

My last piece of evidence was that the ball didn't come flying out, as it typically does on a transfer.

All my evidence was completely circumstantial, because I never saw the ball come of the glove in the first place, or knew when it happened (I know I first saw it on the ground when the fielder had already pivoted to make a throw home).

I guess maybe its just a pitfall of a 2 man system, but I don't feel confident going to bed chalking up that excuse.
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Old Mon Jul 23, 2007, 06:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
It's up to the fielder to demonstrate a legal tag. He didn't. Safe.
Perhaps thats the best tiebreaker in this situation... (sigh). I feel bad that I had nothing else to go on, but I kept my eyes on the whole play...
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Old Mon Jul 23, 2007, 08:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TussAgee11
I didn't take my eyes off the play, which is the only reason I saw the ball on the ground in the first place.

The problem was I was in B and as the fielder pivoted to make a potential throw home I was looking at his back. Therefore, if and when his hands came together, and the ball was being transferred, I would have missed it. To me it seemed odd that I would have that happen, and never see the ball on its way to the ground, unless his legs were blocking me out of that.

My last piece of evidence was that the ball didn't come flying out, as it typically does on a transfer.

All my evidence was completely circumstantial, because I never saw the ball come of the glove in the first place, or knew when it happened (I know I first saw it on the ground when the fielder had already pivoted to make a throw home).

I guess maybe its just a pitfall of a 2 man system, but I don't feel confident going to bed chalking up that excuse.
Your only problem was timing. Make sure you know where the ball is before making the call.
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Old Mon Jul 23, 2007, 09:28pm
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Originally Posted by fitump56
No view = ask partner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by etn_ump
No way do you go to your partner on this play.

Read the OP, what is your partner looking at? He is watching the runner on 3rd not your tag play at 2nd. I've got an out at 2nd, you've got to demonstrate some control and voluntary release on the tag play. The ball is on the ground, no control or voluntary release or the ball wouldn't be on the ground.
He clearly said he had "no view" of the play.

No view = ask partner. I don't see why not.
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Old Mon Jul 23, 2007, 09:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TussAgee11
Perhaps thats the best tiebreaker in this situation... (sigh). I feel bad that I had nothing else to go on, but I kept my eyes on the whole play...
Know the feeling.
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