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Old Mon Jan 29, 2007, 10:05pm
oc oc is offline
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foul on the arm after release

Airborne A1 releases the shot and while still airborne B1 gets contact with A1's arm. Foul or no call? is NCAA and HS different? If you answer is it depends on the contact--please explain what do you look for to decide.
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Old Mon Jan 29, 2007, 10:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oc
Airborne A1 releases the shot and while still airborne B1 gets contact with A1's arm. Foul or no call?
Well that is ultimately up to you. But you can call a foul if you deem the contact put the shooter at a disadvantage. That is completely a judgment call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oc
is NCAA and HS different?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oc
If you answer is it depends on the contact--please explain what do you look for to decide.
Once again, this is a judgment call. Did the contact affect the shot or was the contact incidental and did not affect anything. But just because there was some contact does not mean you have a foul. Also if the shooter is trying a circus or off balance shot, I let more go than if a player sets up and follows through and cannot extend their arm.

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Old Mon Jan 29, 2007, 10:23pm
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I know that an Airborne shooter is still considered to be in the act of shooting until they touch the floor.
I thought NCAA rules were different. No such thing as Airborne shooter. Once the ball is out of the hands, then the player is considered just another player.
Thus A1 drives to the basket. Jumps and releases the try. Crashes into B1 before returning to the floor. Ball goes in the basket.
High school rule: NO BASKET. No Free Throws
NCAA rule: Count the basket. Shoot Free Throws if in the bonus. No?
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Old Mon Jan 29, 2007, 10:36pm
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Originally Posted by Zoochy
I know that an Airborne shooter is still considered to be in the act of shooting until they touch the floor.
I thought NCAA rules were different. No such thing as Airborne shooter. Once the ball is out of the hands, then the player is considered just another player.
Thus A1 drives to the basket. Jumps and releases the try. Crashes into B1 before returning to the floor. Ball goes in the basket.
High school rule: NO BASKET. No Free Throws
NCAA rule: Count the basket. Shoot Free Throws if in the bonus. No?
NCAA Men's is the only level that does not have an airborne shooter rule. That is more related to PC fouls and whether the basket counts. That does not apply to fouling a shooter before they reach the floor. If an airborne player has shot a ball and is fouled, the rules are the same. The NCAA just makes a distinction as to whether that "airborne shooter" can commit a PC foul. If the "airborne shooter" commits a foul, then you can shoot bonus FTs and count the basket.

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Old Mon Jan 29, 2007, 11:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oc
Airborne A1 releases the shot and while still airborne B1 gets contact with A1's arm. Foul or no call? is NCAA and HS different? If you answer is it depends on the contact--please explain what do you look for to decide.
One question I always ask myself is did the contact affect the shot. Once the ball is off the shooter's hand, contact to the arm cannot affect the shot. That's not the only criteria I consider, but if the contact is slight and the shot's away, I'll probably pass on it.
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Old Tue Jan 30, 2007, 09:27am
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Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle
One question I always ask myself is did the contact affect the shot. Once the ball is off the shooter's hand, contact to the arm cannot affect the shot. That's not the only criteria I consider, but if the contact is slight and the shot's away, I'll probably pass on it.
Agreed, but I also think we need to consider whether the contact might affect later shots. The harder the contact, and the closer to the release that it happens, the more likely it is to be a foul.
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Old Tue Jan 30, 2007, 09:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle
One question I always ask myself is did the contact affect the shot. Once the ball is off the shooter's hand, contact to the arm cannot affect the shot. That's not the only criteria I consider, but if the contact is slight and the shot's away, I'll probably pass on it.
Agreed, I know what you are saying and agree to a point. Contact that prevents complete follow through can affect a shot.
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Old Tue Jan 30, 2007, 09:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater
Agreed, I know what you are saying and agree to a point. Contact that prevents complete follow through can affect a shot.
I concur. I called a foul Saturday on 3-pointer when the defender smack the shooters arm right after the release.

I am more likely to call this type of foul on a jump shot than I would for a lay-up or jump hook in the paint.
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Old Tue Jan 30, 2007, 09:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater
Contact that prevents complete follow through can affect a shot.
Not if the shot has already been released.
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Old Tue Jan 30, 2007, 10:02am
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It sure will. Try it sometime and see, as a shooter when I got hit just after release and was not able to extend my arm fully it would change the shot. I don't pretend to know all the physics of how the shot really works but I can say with absolute confidence that not being able to follow through did something.
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Old Tue Jan 30, 2007, 10:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater
It sure will. Try it sometime and see, as a shooter when I got hit just after release and was not able to extend my arm fully it would change the shot. I don't pretend to know all the physics of how the shot really works but I can say with absolute confidence that not being able to follow through did something.
If the ball was out of your hands it didn't do anything to change the shot.

btw...I get a nickel every time I post this so here it is again:

The airborne shooter rule is the same under ncaa mens, nfhs and ncaa womans rules. Here is the ncaa version, first art under rule 4:
Quote:
Art. 1. An airborne shooter is in the act of shooting.
A.R. 67. A1 is in the air on a jump shot in the lane. A1 releases the ball on a try and is fouled by B1, who has jumped in an unsuccessful attempt to block the shot. A1’s try is: (a) successful; or (b) unsuccessful. RULING: A1 shall be an airborne shooter when the ball is released until he or she returns with one foot touching the floor. An airborne shooter shall be in the act of shooting. B1 has fouled A1 in the act of shooting. A1 shall be awarded one free throw in (a), and two in (b).

Art. 2. An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try for goal until one foot has returned to the floor.
What is different is that under nfhs and ncaa-w an airborne shooter is still considered to have control of the ball after the shot is released for the purposes of a PC foul.
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Old Tue Jan 30, 2007, 10:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater
It sure will. Try it sometime and see, as a shooter when I got hit just after release and was not able to extend my arm fully it would change the shot. I don't pretend to know all the physics of how the shot really works but I can say with absolute confidence that not being able to follow through did something.
Only Fred Flintstone can affect the path of the ball after it's been released by adjusting his followthru. The sole point of followthru is to ensure that at the moment of release everything is properly lined up. Once the ball is away, if the arm is bumped, or even stopped entirely, the contact absolutely cannot affect the shot. The ball is away.

I do agree with Bob too, there is more to consider than simply whether the contact affected the shot.
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Old Tue Jan 30, 2007, 10:38am
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In a BV game last week, we had two good teams -- one with a nice offense built around picks and jump shots. In the middle of the second quarter, a defender raced at a jump shooter and well after the shot was away, slightly jabbed at the shooter's stomach. He didn't seem to touch much and the shot was away. But it was obvious of the intent and the result.
The second time that happened, the jab was not as subtle and it was an easy call. But, we also warned the offending team that it would continue to be called and the tactic stopped.

It sort of reminds me of the way some teams used to have a defender definitely make contact with a free throw shooter after the first made shot of a 1-and-1...and more than once watch it occur after the first of two free throws.
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Old Tue Jan 30, 2007, 11:45am
MJT MJT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater
It sure will. Try it sometime and see, as a shooter when I got hit just after release and was not able to extend my arm fully it would change the shot. I don't pretend to know all the physics of how the shot really works but I can say with absolute confidence that not being able to follow through did something.
100% agree!!! Not being able to follow thru does affect the shot. Why else would coaches at ALL level preach about a great follow thru. Think of how it affects you in golf. It is similar to why a player will change his follow thru to do a different type of shot in golf.

Last edited by MJT; Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 12:04pm.
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Old Tue Jan 30, 2007, 12:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
Agreed, but I also think we need to consider whether the contact might affect later shots. The harder the contact, and the closer to the release that it happens, the more likely it is to be a foul.
That's my take as well. Little ticky tacky touch contact that happens after the shot is released I usually let go unless it hinders the shooter's ability to follow through. Harder contact, or anything I think creates an obvious disadvantage for the shooter is going to get a whistle.
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