Voluntary Release Play...

[TussAgee11]

I'm in B, runners on 1st and 3rd. Double steal. F6 makes a good tag on R1 and then turns to face towards 3rd base so he can quickly throw home if neccessary.

I see a good tag, a bit of possession, and start to come up from my set with an OUT call. However, the next thing I see is the ball in the legs of the runner who is lying on the ground. I call SAFE emphatically and point at the ground. Here comes manager and assisstant to the foul line to yell (thats a whole different story but I'm convinced that no umpire in my association puts assistants in their place).

They want me to go to PU for help (yelling at me from the foul line), saying the drop was on the transfer (I don't care about the assisstant but the manager wanted it). I simply shake my head, that I'm not going for help. My partner talks them off the field, while I'm simply staring at the manager from my position.

I was looking at F6's back when his hands started to come together. I never saw the ball come out of his glove at any point, I just saw it rolling on the ground. My other piece of evidence was that the ball didn't come "flying out", as it typically does when a ball is dropped on a transfer.

So, given this information (or lack of information), would you call out or safe? Also, would you go to your partner for help on a play that is right in front of you when asked?

I think I may have missed it, but I had no view of it, either way.

Thanks.

[JR12]

I would think if it was dropped on the pull, you would have seen it come loose. Of course they are going to try to get an out, that goes in thier favor.

[DG]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I was looking at F6's back when his hands started to come together. I never saw the ball come out of his glove at any point, I just saw it rolling on the ground. My other piece of evidence was that the ball didn't come "flying out", as it typically does when a ball is dropped on a transfer.

So, given this information (or lack of information), would you call out or safe? Also, would you go to your partner for help on a play that is right in front of you when asked?

From what you describe "when his hands started to come together"... followed by "saw it rolling on the ground", sounds like a SAFE to me.

And I would NEVER ask for PU help on a play at 2B right in front of me.

[mbyron]

Remember that the fielder's need to make a quick play elsewhere is no reason to rush your call. The runner's just as out or safe whether you call it fast or slow, and if you get the timing right chances are that you'll see this play correctly.

Nobody here can tell you whether the runner was out or safe. Learn from the experience and you'll be better next time.

And, I would never go to partner on this call.

[TussAgee11]

I guess my real question is, in regard to voluntary release... can you call what you don't see?

I never saw the hands come together and never saw voluntary release, so can I call it? Where does the "benefit of the doubt" go in this situation?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I guess my real question is, in regard to voluntary release... can you call what you don't see?

I never saw the hands come together and never saw voluntary release, so can I call it? Where does the "benefit of the doubt" go in this situation?

I understood your question, but I was trying to look at the larger picture. Why is there any "doubt" in this situation? Presumably because you were moving ahead of the play and not focused on what you should have been seeing.

You saw a "bit of possession" and then the ball on the ground? How did that happen? You missed something crucial here, and there should be no "benefit of the doubt" in this situation.

But perhaps your question is: how to handle the mistake? Make the best call you can given what you saw. Often that's the expected call: if the ball's on the ground when the dust settled, how are you going to call that runner out? You can't sell the "dropped on transfer" because you didn't see it.

Don't call what you don't see, but make sure you see the whole play next time.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I guess my real question is, in regard to voluntary release... can you call what you don't see?

I never saw the hands come together and never saw voluntary release, so can I call it? Where does the "benefit of the doubt" go in this situation?

It's up to the fielder to demonstrate a legal tag. He didn't. Safe.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's up to the fielder to demonstrate a legal tag. He didn't. Safe.

Perhaps thats the best tiebreaker in this situation... (sigh). I feel bad that I had nothing else to go on, but I kept my eyes on the whole play...

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Also, would you go to your partner for help on a play that is right in front of you when asked?

I think I may have missed it, but I had no view of it, either way.

No view = ask partner.

[etn_ump]

Originally Posted by fitump56

No view = ask partner.

No way do you go to your partner on this play.

Read the OP, what is your partner looking at? He is watching the runner on 3rd not your tag play at 2nd. I've got an out at 2nd, you've got to demonstrate some control and voluntary release on the tag play. The ball is on the ground, no control or voluntary release or the ball wouldn't be on the ground.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by fitump56
No view = ask partner.

Originally Posted by etn_ump

No way do you go to your partner on this play.

Read the OP, what is your partner looking at? He is watching the runner on 3rd not your tag play at 2nd. I've got an out at 2nd, you've got to demonstrate some control and voluntary release on the tag play. The ball is on the ground, no control or voluntary release or the ball wouldn't be on the ground.

He clearly said he had "no view" of the play.

No view = ask partner. I don't see why not.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by fitump56

Originally Posted by fitump56
No view = ask partner.



He clearly said he had "no view" of the play.

No view = ask partner. I don't see why not.

If it makes you feel better he told me in the parking lot that he had no view of it and had already turned to watch R3's break from home.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by fitump56
No view = ask partner.

He clearly said he had "no view" of the play.

No view = ask partner. I don't see why not.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

If it makes you feel better he told me in the parking lot that he had no view of it and had already turned to watch R3's break from home.

But you didn't know that until after the game. The guys I work with, if they had a different call, a glance or a hand sign, me to partner or partner to me, we would be on the same page immediately. You may not have that luxury.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by fitump56

Originally Posted by fitump56
No view = ask partner.



He clearly said he had "no view" of the play.

No view = ask partner. I don't see why not.

Because your partner has a job to do on this play, and it's not to provide backup to you ... it's to watch the base-touch on the other runner and prepare for a possible play there.

If partner saw anything he could add to your call, then he wasn't doing his job. Don't know about you, but I make the assumption that my partner is doing his job. Bringing this one to him is frankly an insult to his abilities, and puts doubt into everyone else's minds about YOUR abilities. Stick with the call on this one.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by fitump56
Originally Posted by fitump56
No view = ask partner.

He clearly said he had "no view" of the play.

No view = ask partner. I don't see why not.

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Because your partner has a job to do on this play, and it's not to provide backup to you ... it's to watch the base-touch on the other runner and prepare for a possible play there.

What if he wasn't doing that? Are you willing to get a call wrong because you don't want to at least attempt to get your partner's input?

If partner saw anything he could add to your call, then he wasn't doing his job. Don't know about you, but I make the assumption that my partner is doing his job.

I make no assumptions whatsoever and the fact he may have other responsibilities does not mean he couldn't have looked my way.

Bringing this one to him is frankly an insult to his abilities, and puts doubt into everyone else's minds about YOUR abilities. Stick with the call on this one.

BS, take your ego and partner's and leave then at the gate to the field. The insult is in not doing so.