Voluntary Release Play...

[PeteBooth]

=TussAgee11]

I see a good tag, a bit of possession, and start to come up from my set with an OUT call. However, the next thing I see is the ball in the legs of the runner who is lying on the ground. I call SAFE emphatically and point at the ground.

What does "bit of possession" mean" ? Either the fielder demonstrated possession or he didn't and that's your judgement.

Sounds like you didn't "allow the entire" play to go to it's conclusion. From the "strict" reading of what happened, I have a Safe call. Also, did you take your eyes off the play at any time?

Pete Booth

[TussAgee11]

I didn't take my eyes off the play, which is the only reason I saw the ball on the ground in the first place.

The problem was I was in B and as the fielder pivoted to make a potential throw home I was looking at his back. Therefore, if and when his hands came together, and the ball was being transferred, I would have missed it. To me it seemed odd that I would have that happen, and never see the ball on its way to the ground, unless his legs were blocking me out of that.

My last piece of evidence was that the ball didn't come flying out, as it typically does on a transfer.

All my evidence was completely circumstantial, because I never saw the ball come of the glove in the first place, or knew when it happened (I know I first saw it on the ground when the fielder had already pivoted to make a throw home).

I guess maybe its just a pitfall of a 2 man system, but I don't feel confident going to bed chalking up that excuse.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I didn't take my eyes off the play, which is the only reason I saw the ball on the ground in the first place.

The problem was I was in B and as the fielder pivoted to make a potential throw home I was looking at his back. Therefore, if and when his hands came together, and the ball was being transferred, I would have missed it. To me it seemed odd that I would have that happen, and never see the ball on its way to the ground, unless his legs were blocking me out of that.

My last piece of evidence was that the ball didn't come flying out, as it typically does on a transfer.

All my evidence was completely circumstantial, because I never saw the ball come of the glove in the first place, or knew when it happened (I know I first saw it on the ground when the fielder had already pivoted to make a throw home).

I guess maybe its just a pitfall of a 2 man system, but I don't feel confident going to bed chalking up that excuse.

Your only problem was timing. Make sure you know where the ball is before making the call.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Your only problem was timing. Make sure you know where the ball is before making the call.

The problem wasn't timing, my problem was literally not seeing the play. It wasn't that I had my mind made up before I had processed it all, its that my eyes were literally incapable of seeing part of the play.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

The problem wasn't timing, my problem was literally not seeing the play. It wasn't that I had my mind made up before I had processed it all, its that my eyes were literally incapable of seeing part of the play.

It happens. X-ray goggles aren't standard umpiring gear.

Just don't make it a habit.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

The problem wasn't timing, my problem was literally not seeing the play. It wasn't that I had my mind made up before I had processed it all, its that my eyes were literally incapable of seeing part of the play.

Four magic words if you're unsure - SHOW ME THE BALL

[tibear]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Four magic words if you're unsure - SHOW ME THE BALL

Exactly!!

Especially on a steal, if I have any doubt as to where the ball is, I immediately yell, "Show me the ball!!". If the defence raises their glove with the ball then I have an out otherwise save.

The beauty of this is that it tells both benches that I saw the play and have an out but only if the defensive player maintained control of the ball.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by tibear

Exactly!!

Especially on a steal, if I have any doubt as to where the ball is, I immediately yell, "Show me the ball!!". If the defence raises their glove with the ball then I have an out otherwise save.

The beauty of this is that it tells both benches that I saw the play and have an out but only if the defensive player maintained control of the ball.

So ... you guys are going to start giving fielders direction about showing you the ball when they are in the middle of trying to initiate another play? Egads, surely not. On one like this, the umpire merely needs to wait.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Four magic words if you're unsure - SHOW ME THE BALL

But he wasn't unsure--the ball was clearly on the ground. The only question is how it got there, and asking the fielder to SHOW ME THE BALL doesn't help at this point.

Personally, if I didn't know how the ball got to the ground, safe is the only call I can make.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by celebur

But he wasn't unsure--the ball was clearly on the ground. The only question is how it got there, and asking the fielder to SHOW ME THE BALL doesn't help at this point.

Personally, if I didn't know how the ball got to the ground, safe is the only call I can make.

Not to bash Tuss on this, I think we've all done something similar at some point, but from his own words he started to signal 'safe' but then saw the ball on the ground. He wasn't 'unsure', he was simply wrong.

Timing, timing, timing. See the ball. If you don't see it ask for it. The extra second or two makes all the difference in the world. One play/one call. If the fielder can't produce the ball you signal safe and sell it, if needed, by stating that the fielder does not have possession of the ball.

[DG]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I guess maybe its just a pitfall of a 2 man system, but I don't feel confident going to bed chalking up that excuse.

A 4 man system would not be any better because you would still be in the same spot with the same view. From what you have described I have a drop, SAFE. Stop agonizing over it...

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by DG

A 4 man system would not be any better because you would still be in the same spot with the same view. From what you have described I have a drop, SAFE. Stop agonizing over it...

In four man, U2 would be closer to the play. They can also work inside at a deep "C". I think the whole problem centers from being in "B" with a R1 and R3.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

In four man, U2 would be closer to the play. They can also work inside at a deep "C". I think the whole problem centers from being in "B" with a R1 and R3.

Hogwash. You still can't see through a player regardless of shallow B vs deep C (assuming U2 would be in deep C vs. deep B).

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by DG

Hogwash. You still can't see through a player regardless of shallow B vs deep C (assuming U2 would be in deep C vs. deep B).

While I agree you can't see through a player, in *this particular play* the infielder turned toward "C" to make the throw (as would most middle infielders since most are right handed). An umpire in C would have a better view of *this play* than would an umpire in B.

At some point, umpires are going to get blocked out, so we need to move to get the best angle for the play that happens. Can't always do it.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

While I agree you can't see through a player, in *this particular play* the infielder turned toward "C" to make the throw (as would most middle infielders since most are right handed). An umpire in C would have a better view of *this play* than would an umpire in B.

At some point, umpires are going to get blocked out, so we need to move to get the best angle for the play that happens. Can't always do it.

This is the exact reason I am moving twards the top of the mound cutout on a ball hit in the infield. A couple of steps in , pivot and you have a great view. Staying in the "B", and depending how close you are to the infield grassline, will get you into this type of trouble. Go to the mound and adjust accordingly. This has worked for me. Not being locked into one spot.