I've finally seen it............

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Here is the problem; you and others are trying to oversimplify this discussion. You do not see a Major League Umpire or a D1 umpire brush off the bag with a plate brush.

95% of the folks on this board are not MLB, MiLB or D1. Never do any of these umps ever have to make a call from 120'

Field conditions are also much different at most Babe ruth, travel fields and in house fields. Sometimes one has to improvise

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Now it is called a plate brush for a reason. The very same reason you do not see basketball officials wear a collared shirt either.

Brushing off a base so you can see it at 120' is much different than wearing a collared shirt.
One is necessitated to help insure a correct call, the other is a matter of uniform.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you do it either means you are not very well trained or you are not a very knowledgeable as an umpire or official.

The trained umpire by definition has xray eyes and can see thrugh the dirt at 120'
Give me a break!!
It's a matter of seeing the base or not seeing the base.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Now you can think whatever you like. But whether you like it or not, when someone is trying to decide to give someone a big game or move up in a level, they will use things like what I just told you as part of the discussion.

You are such an elitist.
I'd venture to say that over 95% of the baseball games played in this country are below the HS varsity level. When umpiring below that level field conditions vary from excellent to very poor.
When I'm doing a solo 15 yr old game I'm not interviewing for the ASU vs USC game. I'm doing what's necessary to give the 15 yr olds a quality officiated game and if that means I have to brush off 2nd in order to see it, so be it.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Because if you bring out a plate brush to wipe off the a base, chances area you are doing other things that are not considered professional.
Also someone might scrutinize you much harsher as well. I have yet to find anyone that teaches this. I did this for about 2 games and I was told to stop. I did not question the person, but they told me it looked bad and made me seem like a rookie and I have not done this since.

If it's 2 man I totally agree, not if you're solo and you can't see the white of the bag.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is no different than wearing a ball bag on the bases as well.

It's no different than wearing a collared shirt in basketball but much different than brushing a base out of necessity

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Also keep in mind you said you were working a 15 year old travel tournament. That level does not have the same expectation of umpire professionalism as working a HS varsity game or a college and pro game.

See elitist comment above

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

to
Tim, Rut, Garth and Larry

I understand that none of you would lower yourself to clean off a bag, but none of you spoke to the issue that prompted the cleaning.

It has nothing to do with "lowering yourself." How hard is it to see a bag that is off the ground? This is not something like the plate that in imbedded in the ground. The bases is off the damn ground. Even with some dirt on it, it is easy to see. If you cannot see an object sticking out of the ground, you need to get into better position or go to an eye doctor. I also did not say I would not kick some dirt off the bag. I said I would not use a “plate brush” (notice the name) to brush dirt off the bag.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Do you prefer making calls at 120' to a bag you can see or approximating where it might be based on player location?
Personally I prefer seeing the bag before making a call
Was it one of the old SNL comedians that said "It's better to look good then feel good"? You guys have gone one better 'It's better to look good then get the call right'
I'd rather be a 'smitty' and get the call right then be... well be like you and be guessing

So you are telling me that if you have two umpires that have the same ability, 5'7 and 300 pounds and the other umpire is 6'1 and 195 and athletic will be judged the same?

Also one of the biggest myths in any kind of officiating, is the fact that we think "getting plays right" is what makes us a better official/umpire. Getting a play right is often a perception. There are veterans that have been around, have a vast resume and they will make a big mistake and no one will bother them. They have earned a certain level of respect for years of experience. A rookie has not earned that same level of respect even though they might be better than most veterans are nitpicked by everything they do. If you want to believe that no one makes decisions about you as an umpire on factors like this. Turn your hat backwards. Wear white colored shoes. Wear a pair of pants from Wal-mart. Use and adjustable hat. Do all those things and more then do not complain when other umpires inferior to you get better games or advance or are asked to work the big tournaments. But remember you got the plays right.

Peace

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Don,


I just want to let you know that the bag could be brand new and glaring white and you're still going to have to make your best guess on a pickoff play or steal of second if you're making the call from behind the dish. There's no way you can accurately see the bag from there.


Tim.

I agree that you have to make an educated guess on occasion, but you have abetter education when you can see the white of the bag.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

blah, blah, blah....defensive blathering....blah, blah, blah.

If you're not ready for the answer, don't ask the question.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Don step away from the table . . . take a breath.

"Do you prefer making calls at 120' to a bag . . . "

Not sure how that could happen since I would never accept an assignment of a one man game.

"Personally I prefer seeing the bag before making a call . . . "

Don I would suggest that maybe the problem lies with you if you can't see the bases on a field. I have never seen an umpire EVER have that problem.

" . . . well be like you and be guessing . . . "

I have no idea what you mean with this statement but I would bet that none of those you have named "guess at calls."

Here's an idea:

Form a four man crew with Steven Tyler, PWL and fitump56 and the two of you can umpire anyway you want.

Regards,

Well then we are in total agreement as to your situation. In 2,3 or 4 man I would never brush a bag either.
Since you have never had to make a call from 120' to a dirt colored bag then it seems your advice and opinion on this matter should be weighted accordingly

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by GarthB

If you're not ready for the answer, don't ask the question.

My question was not posed in such a manner as to be seeking advice.
I just wanted to make sure I was reading you right and I was.

I consider those who are too lazy to get the bag visible to be the "smitties"

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It has nothing to do with "lowering yourself." How hard is it to see a bag that is off the ground? This is not something like the plate that in imbedded in the ground. The bases is off the damn ground. Even with some dirt on it, it is easy to see. If you cannot see an object sticking out of the ground, you need to get into better position or go to an eye doctor. I also did not say I would not kick some dirt off the bag. I said I would not use a “plate brush” (notice the name) to brush dirt off the bag.

I understand that you haven't done a solo on a poor field in a long time, maybe ever. I can say that with confidence because your statement about the bag being off the ground therefore visible is a dead giveaway.
I'll guarantee you there are plenty of umpires on this board that would verify what I'm saying but they're scared of getting flamed.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Also one of the biggest myths in any kind of officiating, is the fact that we think "getting plays right" is what makes us a better official/umpire.

If angle and distance is important then why is bag visibility so unimportant?

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by GarthB

If you're not ready for the answer, don't ask the question.

This should help clarify the issue.

If you Garth were doing a solo game and second base was the color of dirt and you could not see it from HP, what would you do?

2nd ?

If kicking it did not change it's color then what?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

95% of the folks on this board are not MLB, MiLB or D1. Never do any of these umps ever have to make a call from 120'

Field conditions are also much different at most Babe ruth, travel fields and in house fields. Sometimes one has to improvise

99% of non-umpires judge us on things that they see on TV or at the local MLB stadium. That is just the way it is whether you or I like it.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Brushing off a base so you can see it at 120' is much different than wearing a collared shirt.
One is necessitated to help insure a correct call, the other is a matter of uniform.

Actually it is not, but then again I am experienced in both.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

The trained umpire by definition has xray eyes and can see thrugh the dirt at 120'
Give me a break!!
It's a matter of seeing the base or not seeing the base.

I am still having a hard time trying to understand why it is hard to see a base that is raised off the ground. Also I do not see even most youth fields so bad that dirt is stacked on top of each base. Usually most youth fields I have worked on they do water the dirt and they rack the dirt. Or they do not have to do this at all because of rain that pelted the field. I know I wear contacts, but maybe my eyesight is better than your eyesight.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

You are such an elitist.
I'd venture to say that over 95% of the baseball games played in this country are below the HS varsity level. When umpiring below that level field conditions vary from excellent to very poor.
When I'm doing a solo 15 yr old game I'm not interviewing for the ASU vs USC game. I'm doing what's necessary to give the 15 yr olds a quality officiated game and if that means I have to brush off 2nd in order to see it, so be it.

Don, even on the lowest of levels, there are people that do nothing but take care of the fields from my experience. Actually where I live the players and the coaches are the ones that keep up their own fields. At the D-1 level I have worked, the group that put on the tarp was the home players. That does not sound like too elite to me. That sounds like the coaches, players and fans want the field to be in good shape.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

It's no different than wearing a collared shirt in basketball but much different than brushing a base out of necessity

Don, you are sadly mistaken. Basketball is just like any other sport that has mores that are expected for the officials to look like they know what they are doing. BTW, I just finished my last basketball camp on Sunday. Most of the comments that were made about me were about presentation, appearance, use of voice, ability to run and the last thing that was talked about was calls I actually made. Why is that, because officials at a certain level are going to have equal or similar ability to make a call? The other things I listed show an official's confidence and give the perception they know what the hell they are doing. It is very hard in a basketball game (applies to baseball too) for a coach to say I was not in position when I hustled and I make the call. Even how we sell a basic all can tell on us as an official to how much we know about the game.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

See elitist comment above

If I am an elitist, you are a weekend warrior. We are judged as officials from the way deal with the secretary at the school to the time we leave the field or gym that we officiate. Also do not think all lower level coaches have not played or have not coached the game for years. They are often judging you in ways you will never know. There is a reason some umpires are always having problems and other umpires hardly ever have problems. I went for about a 5 to 6 year stretch without ejecting a single coach. In many of those cases I was never seen before by the coaches and I had some really tough plays to call. I can assure you that a large reason for that was because I was trained on the dos and donts of umpiring and I looked like I was in position and hustled every single time I was on a field during that time. Also most umpires that I know that really take umpiring seriously, want to work HS and HS varsity because the pay usually goes up and people they work with are much better. If you are just a LL umpire and you want to brush the dirt off with your plate brush that might be something that works at that level. When you start working games beyond that, you better be more competent in what you are doing. If not, you will be run out off the field a lot quicker.

Once again this is just an opinion. Feel free to ignore them. I am just sharing something to help out those out that do not know any better.

Peace

[UmpLarryJohnson]

have NEVER had any problems seeing a base without "BRUSHING" it like some FISH out there......wow

if you cant SEE a base thats like 2 feet SQUARE and 3-4 INCHES tall from the PROPER position on the field, JEHOVAH man get some LAZIK or quit ferchissssakes


YOU are why CHARLIE jokes are POPULAR. NUF SAID DONE with this one

[Tim C]

Sadly Don you have simply become . . . insignificant.

Ignore +1

Regards,

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

This should help clarify the issue.

If you Garth were doing a solo game and second base was the color of dirt and you could not see it from HP, what would you do?

2nd ?

If kicking it did not change it's color then what?

1) On a pickoff, "safe". On a steal, "out"

2) I would never know whether kicking the bag would change it's color.

There are three things I don't do on the field: Give a rules clinic, demonstrate balks, perform field maintenance.

[NEohioref]

Originally Posted by Tim C

"poorly trained small diamond ump..do we know where the base/playe is? Yes,,but a clean bag will also sell the call...."

So people in your games run around "looking for bases" . . . We all know where the bases are and so do runners. You have to have better logic than this to make sense.

Do u not brush off the pitching plate?

Please write and not text your questions.

No, I have never brushed off a pitcher's plate and we teach our umpires to NEVER do it either. Again all know where it is . . .

You didn't really have a question did you? You are just another umpire trying to make a point that basically is incorrect.

Lets just agreee to disagree, I have worked with umpires that have worked "The Big Game" and have seen them brush,kick,dirt off the bases. Call me a Smitty if you want. I guess we are all Smittys ,even the guys who worked the big game. And Im sure you dont want to work with me since I'm poorly trainned. Hey Dad,do you think your going to get another state playoff game?This will only be 17 in a row. How many college/minor league games will you work? Blame my smitty dad I guess. Now let me go brush off this base.

[UmpLarryJohnson]

Originally Posted by NEohioref

Lets just agreee to disagree, I have worked with umpires that have worked "The Big Game" and have seen them brush,kick,dirt off the bases. Call me a Smitty if you want. I guess we are all Smittys ,even the guys who worked the big game. And Im sure you dont want to work with me since I'm poorly trainned. Hey Dad,do you think your going to get another state playoff game?This will only be 17 in a row. How many college/minor league games will you work? Blame my smitty dad I guess. Now let me go brush off this base.

well NO need to get defensive once your mistake was POINTED out. its ONLY using a BRUSH on the bases thats WRONG...you can KICK the darn things ALL DAY if you want.

BRUSH on BASE is a CHARLIE, dont CARE how many "7U Champeenships of the KNOWN UNIVERSE" they worked!

[Dave Reed]

I watched a good, non-Smitty umpire kick dirt off second base yesterday. Actually I'd like to think even those who would "never" do field maintenence would have made an exception in this case. Here in sunny California, we need to water the infields to keep them in playable condition, and a broken water main had left the area around second with 2 or 3 inches of dust. Umpires and fielders could see the base, but baserunners coming at high speed had difficulty in picking up the base. I suppose BU could have stopped the game and called in the field crew to clean the base, he wasn't too proud to take care of it himself. The defense sure wasn't going to do it!

From my point of view, if cleaning the plate is the plate umpire's responsibility, cleaning the bases would be the base umpire's responsibility. The difference is that the bags almost "never" need cleaning. Neither does the pitcher's rubber.