No such thing as a timing play?

[SAump]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Amer Legion - OBR
Runners at R2@2B & R1@3B 2 outs.
Ball hit to F5. R2 has passed F6 on the way to 3B, for whatever reason, F5 chases R2 who turns around heading back to 2B. By the time the tag is made, BR is at first and R1 has scored. I score the run & out 3.
Coach has a mild myocardial infarction, I tell him its a timing play, BR reached 1st safely and R1 made it home. Coach tells me there is no such thing as a timing play, thats softball (he knows I am primarily a FP umpire), that its a continuation play, the run should not score.
Well, I was confused so I just ended the convo ruling stood, end of story. Nearly had to eject the score keeper who was whining as well that it was a "continuation play"..
So I come to the experts.. what say you?

You made the right call. Dumb rats make your job more difficult. You should have dumped these 2 immediately for disputing the call. Some umpires may wait 2 years to do this. That isn't right either, but it is part of a continuation play.

[greymule]

Since the coach invoked softball, I'll extend the OP a bit and give an example of a difference between OBR and ASA softball.

In the OP, the run scored before the third out, so it counts (time play). However, if after the tag, F5 still had time to get the BR at 1B, he could have done so for a fourth out and nullified the run.

But in ASA softball, he could not. Even if the BR never left the batter's box, he cannot be put out for a fourth out (because he didn't score).

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by greymule

Since the coach invoked softball, I'll extend the OP a bit and give an example of a difference between OBR and ASA softball.

In the OP, the run scored before the third out, so it counts (time play). However, if after the tag, F5 still had time to get the BR at 1B, he could have done so for a fourth out and nullified the run.

But in ASA softball, he could not. Even if the BR never left the batter's box, he cannot be put out for a fourth out (because he didn't score).

Maybe I haven't been at this forum long enough, but are you kidding me? I like to think I keep up with sarcasm and such, but perhaps I missed it here.

Other than the appeal section, where it talks about the "apparent 4th out," where else does it say anything about a 4th out nullifying a run? In anything - rulebook, interpretation, whatever?

[SAump]

Originally Posted by HokieUmp

Maybe I haven't been at this forum long enough, but are you kidding me? I like to think I keep up with sarcasm and such, but perhaps I missed it here.

Other than the appeal section, where it talks about the "apparent 4th out," where else does it say anything about a 4th out nullifying a run? In anything - rulebook, interpretation, whatever?

OBR 7.10: Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when --
Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.” If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has “left the field” when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or clubhouse.

Well, if it doesn't; how about 2006 BRD#3, Pg 9-10 Appeals: Advantages Out at First: Live Action
FED, NCAA and OBR Point not covered. FED Official Interp. 2-3: Hopkins. NCAA Official Interp. 3-3: Fetchiet. OBR Official Interp. 4-3: Fitzpatrick. Advantageous 4th Out.

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by SAump

OBR 7.10: Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when --
Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.” If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has “left the field” when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or clubhouse.

Well, if it doesn't; how about 2006 BRD#3, Pg 9-10 Appeals: Advantages Out at First: Live Action
FED, NCAA and OBR Point not covered. FED Official Interp. 2-3: Hopkins. NCAA Official Interp. 3-3: Fetchiet. OBR Official Interp. 4-3: Fitzpatrick. Advantageous 4th Out.

Actually, when I wrote "apparent 4th out" originally. I was referring to appeal plays. I should have written: "Aside from the 'apparent 4th out' on an appeal play, when would that actually happen?" (Aside from a team trying to get over?) My bad for not being more clear.

Greymule's posting said "However, if after the tag, F5 still had time to get the BR at 1B, he could have done so for a fourth out and nullified the run." That is NOT an appeal play, so your quote of OBR 7.10 - and all the other manual pages - is irrelevant. He's saying in his "however" - unless I misunderstand, and he wants to clarify - that the defense made the equivalent of a 5-3 play for this 4th out.

Please tell me that teams, noticing a BR has stopped running to 1st in this sitch, throw to F3 to claim an appeal of a "missed base," or try to say the last out is a force, and thus the run doesn't count.

Sorry, but if a team does that with me, when I'm done chuckling, I send them on their way to bat. Again, if someone wants to quote a rule for me, I'm game to listen.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by HokieUmp

Please tell me that teams, noticing a BR has stopped running to 1st in this sitch, throw to F3 to claim an appeal of a "missed base," or try to say the last out is a force, and thus the run doesn't count.

Sorry, but if a team does that with me, when I'm done chuckling, I send them on their way to bat. Again, if someone wants to quote a rule for me, I'm game to listen.

Well, if a protest committee buys into the BRD or J/R, you might not be laughing last.

From J/R Chapter 10:
" ...3----Not an appeal: Bases loaded, two outs. The batter singles and R2 is thrown out at home for the third out. The batter has been injured and is unable to advance to first, prompting the defense to throw to first against him: this is a advantageous fourth out and supercedes the former third out, and no run can score."

The BRD (2004 ed., article 3) quotes Hopkins (FED), Fetchiet (NCAA), and Fitzpatrick (OBR, or PBUC probably) as all giving the same interpretation as J/R. Childress also comments "Color me not only italized but surprised. I mean, astonished."

For what it is worth (very little), I'm not astonished. Nothing about 7.10(d) says the 4th out is peculiar to appeal plays. Advantageous outs are only mentioned in the context of appeal plays, but that's the only time they are likely to occur.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by HokieUmp

Actually, when I wrote "apparent 4th out" originally. I was referring to appeal plays. I should have written: "Aside from the 'apparent 4th out' on an appeal play, when would that actually happen?" (Aside from a team trying to get over?) My bad for not being more clear.

Greymule's posting said "However, if after the tag, F5 still had time to get the BR at 1B, he could have done so for a fourth out and nullified the run." That is NOT an appeal play, so your quote of OBR 7.10 - and all the other manual pages - is irrelevant. He's saying in his "however" - unless I misunderstand, and he wants to clarify - that the defense made the equivalent of a 5-3 play for this 4th out.

Please tell me that teams, noticing a BR has stopped running to 1st in this sitch, throw to F3 to claim an appeal of a "missed base," or try to say the last out is a force, and thus the run doesn't count.

Sorry, but if a team does that with me, when I'm done chuckling, I send them on their way to bat. Again, if someone wants to quote a rule for me, I'm game to listen.

Exceptions: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows.
a. by the batter-runner before he touches first base; or
b. by another runner being forced out; or
c. by a proceeding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases or left a base too soon after a caught fly ball; or
d. when a third out is declared during a play in which an umpire observed a base-running infraction resulting in a force out (this out takes precedence if enforcement of it would negate a score); or
e. when there is more than one out declared by the umpire which terminates the half inning, the defensive team may select the out which is to its advantage as in 2-20-2. Credit the putout to the nearest designated baseman. ...

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by SAump

Exceptions: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows.
a. by the batter-runner before he touches first base; or
b. by another runner being forced out; or
c. by a proceeding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases or left a base too soon after a caught fly ball; or
d. when a third out is declared during a play in which an umpire observed a base-running infraction resulting in a force out (this out takes precedence if enforcement of it would negate a score); or
e. when there is more than one out declared by the umpire which terminates the half inning, the defensive team may select the out which is to its advantage as in 2-20-2. Credit the putout to the nearest designated baseman. ...

What would you call in this situation? I know the correct answer.

With two out, R2 scores from second on B1's single, but fails to touch the plate. B1 becomes the third out when he tries to go to second. Right after the out, R2 returns and touches the plate.

[aceholleran]

Originally Posted by greymule

Since the coach invoked softball, I'll extend the OP a bit and give an example of a difference between OBR and ASA softball.

In the OP, the run scored before the third out, so it counts (time play). However, if after the tag, F5 still had time to get the BR at 1B, he could have done so for a fourth out and nullified the run.

But in ASA softball, he could not. Even if the BR never left the batter's box, he cannot be put out for a fourth out (because he didn't score).

Can someone please tell me what I just read?

Ace

[UMP 64]

You said that you primarly do FP, so you were out of your comfort zone. I guess you were needed or a regular baseball ump would be doing the game. The important thing is that you "learned" something that you will never forget. There are some STUPID coaches out there! And there is a timing play in SB. You mentioned that you were mostly a SB ump, and you did not mention you had problems with the baseball strike zone. If your only mistake was the timing play thing, you did well.
Experience is a great teacher.

[greymule]

What would you call in this situation? I know the correct answer.

With two out, R2 scores from second on B1's single, but fails to touch the plate. B1 becomes the third out when he tries to go to second. Right after the out, R2 returns and touches the plate.

No run.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by greymule

What would you call in this situation? I know the correct answer.
With two out, R2 scores from second on B1's single, but fails to touch the plate. B1 becomes the third out when he tries to go to second. Right after the out, R2 returns and touches the plate.
No run.

Choices: Appeal vs Time Play

Touching the plate after the 3rd out was made by the defense may be too late.
If the umpire considers this as a possible timing play, the run would not score by rule.

Crossing the plate, before the 3rd out was made, may have removed the timing play.
If umpire considers "last-time-by," does R2 have to return and touch the plate?
If R2 doesn't return and touch the plate, an umpire may score the run.
After the run scored, retouching the plate only adds a "stomp" of approval.
If R2 returns and touches the plate, an umpire may score the run.
If the umpire considers this as a possible appeal play, the run would score.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by greymule

What would you call in this situation? I know the correct answer.

With two out, R2 scores from second on B1's single, but fails to touch the plate. B1 becomes the third out when he tries to go to second. Right after the out, R2 returns and touches the plate.

No run.

Grey,

Unless the defense lodges a proper appeal on R2 missing the plate he's assumed to have scored. So, no appeal in the play as you've presented it, run scores on the timing play.


Tim.

[greymule]

Unless the defense lodges a proper appeal on R2 missing the plate he's assumed to have scored. So, no appeal in the play as you've presented it, run scores on the timing play.

I know that's the rule in the general case, but I remember reading a case play in which Abel misses the plate and then Baker is out at home for the third out as Abel is returning in an obvious attempt to correct his miss. The "answer" was that Abel's run didn't count. No appeal required. This stuck in my mind because in a semipro game 30 years ago I was actually involved in that play as "Abel."

I was returning to touch the plate when the next runner was put out, largely because he saw me returning and slowed down. (Needless to say, I wasn't the most popular guy on the team for a while.) The ump called the runner out and then pointed to me and said, "And you don't count." When I came up to bat again, I asked him why a miss of home wouldn't be an appeal play, and he responded, "Well, maybe you're right." (I am very thankful we won the game, because it saved me 30 years of nightmares.)

So I was confident that I had been robbed, and looked for substantiation. But in doing so I found (wish I could remember where) a case play identical to the play that happened, and it said the run would not count, the key being that the runner was obviously trying to correct his miss.

Steven Tyler, you posed the play and say you know the answer. What do you say it is?

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by greymule

Unless the defense lodges a proper appeal on R2 missing the plate he's assumed to have scored. So, no appeal in the play as you've presented it, run scores on the timing play.

I know that's the rule in the general case, but I remember reading a case play in which Abel misses the plate and then Baker is out at home for the third out as Abel is returning in an obvious attempt to correct his miss. The "answer" was that Abel's run didn't count. No appeal required. This stuck in my mind because in a semipro game 30 years ago I was actually involved in that play as "Abel."

I was returning to touch the plate when the next runner was put out, largely because he saw me returning and slowed down. (Needless to say, I wasn't the most popular guy on the team for a while.) The ump called the runner out and then pointed to me and said, "And you don't count." When I came up to bat again, I asked him why a miss of home wouldn't be an appeal play, and he responded, "Well, maybe you're right." (I am very thankful we won the game, because it saved me 30 years of nightmares.)

So I was confident that I had been robbed, and looked for substantiation. But in doing so I found (wish I could remember where) a case play identical to the play that happened, and it said the run would not count, the key being that the runner was obviously trying to correct his miss.

Steven Tyler, you posed the play and say you know the answer. What do you say it is?

Is it possible that the case play you recall is one dated back when we used to call a runner out in FED for missing a base without waiting for a proper appeal?


Tim.