I Guess I Deserved it, or Maybe Not.....

[lawump]

Originally Posted by Tim C

A few disconnected thoughts here:

I guess I would ask: "if I was a high school basketball coach and a working umpire would I be held to a different standard while coaching my team?"

IMO, yes absolutely. You SHOULD be held to a different standard. You have first-hand knowledge of how difficult it is to officiate.

Originally Posted by Tim C

Would I not be able to speak my mind freely to a working basketball official?

If "speaking freely" means "getting personal" with the official (so as to draw a technical) I would say "no". If speaking freely means addressing your concerns with the referee in a professional manner...then "yes".

For example, I umpire with a guy (who is a very, very good Div. 1 major-conference college umpire) who complains about (baseball) head coaches. He will say to other umpires that "that coach is a no good such-and-such" and "this coach is a no good xxxxxx" . Which is fine...we all say things like that about certain coaches to other umpires away from the field.

However, this same umpire also coaches a high school girls basketball team and he also likes to tell us stories about how proud he was to get tossed twice during the regular season because "the officials were just horrible and they needed to know it."

You know what? I have little respect for someone with that double-standard. It pisses me off, frankly. Don't moan and groan as an umpire about a head coach because "all he does is b itch and moan and whine all game long" and then go out and do the same thing when you're coaching basketball in the off-season.

Frankly, if I'm umpiring in a game with a guy who is also an *** hole coach (toward officials) ..I may just be a step slower in helping him out when they're ready to burn the dugouts on him. You know: give him a chance to stand there and see how he likes being the official in that situation.

Originally Posted by Tim C

Let's go a step further: if I pay to go to a major league game and an umpire (crew) seriously misapplies a rule do you folks expect me to do or say nothing if asked by another person in the crowd?

No. But I do expect that you won't shout out at the umpire in a manner to draw attention to yourself so that everyone in the stands now knows that another umpire thinks the umpires on the field screwed up.

[I realize that in a MLB park not everyone in the stands will hear you (except in DC) or know you're an umpire...but in the OP...or at a high school game, this is a very real possibility.]

Originally Posted by Tim C

4- In closing was Tim wrong?

Yes, he was.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by lawump

IMO, yes absolutely. You SHOULD be held to a different standard. You have first-hand knowledge of how difficult it is to officiate.



If "speaking freely" means "getting personal" with the official (so as to draw a technical) I would say "no". If speaking freely means addressing your concerns with the referee in a professional manner...then "yes".

For example, I umpire with a guy (who is a very, very good Div. 1 major-conference college umpire) who complains about (baseball) head coaches. He will say to other umpires that "that coach is a no good such-and-such" and "this coach is a no good xxxxxx" . Which is fine...we all say things like that about certain coaches to other umpires away from the field.

However, this same umpire also coaches a high school girls basketball team and he also likes to tell us stories about how proud he was to get tossed twice during the regular season because "the officials were just horrible and they needed to know it."

You know what? I have little respect for someone with that double-standard. It pisses me off, frankly. Don't moan and groan as an umpire about a head coach because "all he does is b itch and moan and whine all game long" and then go out and do the same thing when you're coaching basketball in the off-season.

Frankly, if I'm umpiring in a game with a guy who is also an *** hole coach (toward officials) ..I may just be a step slower in helping him out when they're ready to burn the dugouts on him. You know: give him a chance to stand there and see how he likes being the official in that situation.



No. But I do expect that you won't shout out at the umpire in a manner to draw attention to yourself so that everyone in the stands now knows that another umpire thinks the umpires on the field screwed up.

[I realize that in a MLB park not everyone in the stands will hear you (except in DC) or know you're an umpire...but in the OP...or at a high school game, this is a very real possibility.]



Yes, he was.

I hate rats as much as the next guy, but I expect a coach to be a coach during a game. I don't care if he's a professional or high level college official -- not even if he's an official of the same sport.

Why should that coach be held to a higher standard because sometimes he's an umpire? During the game, his job is coach. He should feel free to act like any other coach and my methods of dealing with him should be no different than the methods I use when someone else is coaching.

Ridiculous. Just ridiculous.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Tim C

4- In closing was Tim wrong? Maybe . . . but he was only 50% of the incorrect behavior.[/I]

I can understand poor officiating. It happens. We have to use people some times that just aren't very good. I can also understand good officials missing a call or even mis-interpreting a rule. I can't understand any circumstance that would condone any sports official publicly crapping all over another sports official on what was basically a judgment call.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I can understand poor officiating. It happens. We have to use people some times that just aren't very good. I can also understand good officials missing a call or even mis-interpreting a rule. I can't understand any circumstance that would condone any sports official publicly crapping all over another sports official on what was basically a judgment call.

JR, please explain how misinterpreting a rule is basically a judgment call. The pitcher was in the windup position, stepped back with his free foot, then threw to a fielder to tag Tim's son for an out. That isn't a judgment call, it is a rule misinterpretation by the umpire.

Originally Posted by Tim C

umpire with "Rei" . . . please recognize that he is a "by the book" umpire. He calls all the rules equally and fairly in each game. While "Rei" and I will never see eye-to-eye on many, many issues he chooses to deal with happenings in his game in a consistent and strong willed way.

As I recall, YOU were the guy that got up in front of our 145 member association and made the statement:

"Gentlemen, we contract with OSAA for games played under NFHS rules. It is not up to us to decide which rules to enforce and which not to. We are to apply ALL rules in the rule book!"

As I recall, this was a Point of Emphasis in the last two years!!!

"strong willed way". Thank you. I take that as "Taking charge of the situation" type of compliment.

I am not sure what we aren't seeing eye to eye about Tim? We are both required to apply ALL rules out of the NFHS rule book. Now indeed, you think that rubbing dirt on the white stitching of a mitt changes the color to something other than white, even though after a person does this, 999 out of 1000 people would say it is "white". I say that is playing lawyer, and is not in the spirit of the rule. I would consider that a pretty minor difference of opinion about an "issue" eh?

Yelling out to a fellow umpire "You are not worth the $55 they are paying you" while you are in the stands and people around know you are an umpire (or even if they don't)? Hmmmmmmm....I would be ashamed to associate with anybody who thinks that is in ANY way OK!