I Guess I Deserved it, or Maybe Not.....

The tread wasn't about that. Seemingly, it was about ragging on that ump.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by rei

Yes, I have ejected spectators. Never an umpire spectator taking jabs at me, but ones who have used profanity towards people on the field, or threats towards people on the field, or taunting players.

Tim did none of these things. I think umpires who care what the fans think are bush league.

Originally Posted by rei

In a case like this, I would make sure you were gone if you made comments again. That is big time bush league.

How would you make sure a fan is gone for making comments? When did it become against the rules to holler at an umpire? If you did that, you must have extremely thin skin. When you put on a uniform, you are supposed to let that stuff roll off you like water off a duck's back.

Originally Posted by rei

Coming here and talking smack about him is almost as low.

I didn't see any smack talk here. He was telling on himself, regretting having opened his mouth against a brother-umpire two years prior. If anything, you should commend Tim for owning up to doing such a thing, and opening himself up to all kinds of criticism.

For the umpire to have that long of a memory, while at the same time being clueless about the rules, tells me all I need to know about this Smitty to start with. I sure wouldn't want to work with someone who doesn't know the most rudimentary rules like what foot to step off with, or that the pitcher has to come to a stop.

While it was wrong of Tim to do what he did two years ago, I find it far more offensive that this incompetent umpire felt it necessary to seek out a fan who paid his nothing to get in, and threaten him. Major Bush League.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

It's easy to dump on Tim. How about the lack of respect the umpire involved clearly gives the game?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

And.....an admittedly biased account by an admittedly biased parent doesn't make it right either.

I can understand an umpire misinterpreting a rule. That can be fixed without publicly sticking a knife in his back however.

I'd like to hear the other umpire's story though. Personally, I give zero credibility to fanboys. Especially fanboys that should know better.

JMO.......

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Major Bush League.

There is nothing more unprofessional than any sports official sitting in the stands and publicly criticizing one of his supposedly fellow officials. It doesn't matter how badly the official blew a call either. There is simply NO excuse for doing so.

It's called "back-stabbing".

I've seen dozens of different "Code of Ethics" printed for various sports and sports officials. One thing that they all have in common is some kind of clause stating that you don't crap on your fellow officials in public.

Missed calls or bad officiating happens some times. There are sub-par officials in all sports. What your buddy did though was inexcusable.

[lawump]

You say that it was bad on the umpire's part to bring it up two years later...but is it possible that he brought it up because he knew you were an umpire? In otherwords is it possible that he would have forgotten all about the incident if you were just a "fan"...but because you are an umpire he remembered it for all those months?

Frankly, I have no sympathy at all for you. You did deserve it. As President of my association, if an umpire called me and told me that another association member yelled at him on the field...there would be serious consequences. To me, that's as egregious a "sin" as any in the umpiring profession.

I have (and will again, I'm sure) reemed out members of the association for yelling at umpires while attending a game as a fan. That behavior is remembered by me for a long time...especially when its time to send names to the state office for playoff games.

[PeteBooth]

I was livid that this guy allowed the out to stand on such a huge balk, one that a second year umpire should be able to call in his sleep. So, I yelled to him that he wasn't worth the $55.00 they were paying him if he couldn't make that call.

Tim whether a first year umpire or a major leaguer, we all "kick one" even the so called "easy ones" How about Gerry Davis in the yanks game this year.

I am sure you have made your share and wouldn't appreciate a comment like the one you gave the BU. Also, this is your son we are talking about.

When my kids played I made it a point to stay "clear" because whenever the fans felt there was a bad call or lack of a call they wanted to "wrope me" in

If you are going to watch your sons game and get "worked up" over it whenever blue makes a bad call or in this case a no call my advice would be to stay away from the action.

As far as what the BU said to you this time IMO you asked for it by saying he wasn't worth the $55.00

When I watch a game I am looking for hustle on the part of blue. If they do not hustle or get into position that gets me more upset then a bad call or lack there-of because I have been there.

Things happend in a heartbeat and some-times I think we all said to ourselves - Hey I missed a balk on that one

Some-times umpires make the worst spectators.

Pete Booth

[bob jenkins]

An umpire remembers a fan from 2 years ago and chooses to confront him?

A "parent's instincts" take over from an "umpire's instincts" when the son isn't in danger?

Despite knowing it's "wrong," an umpire/parent alerts the coach of a potential balk not being called?

Must have been a full moon last night.

[blueskysblue]

What a farce ! A pitcher that doesn't know the rudimentary skills. Obviously a coach that hasn't coached. An umpire that doesnt't know / enforce the most basic rules and thinks he has the authority to control fans. A fan - dad - umpire that can't stop himself from trying to control a game that he isn't working.

Yeah, I've seen all those, just not at the same time, in one game. I have "ejected" fans, meaning I've asked league / school administration to remove said fan due to him/her being out of control and having a negative impact on the game, players, coaches, etc.

LawUmp: Do you monitor all other private actions of umpires in your association? What and how they drive, to and from the game? Whether or not they "have a few" in the parking lot or at a local "watering hole" after a game? How they spend the money received for umpiring? Hmm. Withholding a recommendation for playoff assignments based upon perceived unethical behavior while attending a game as a fan? Sound like you have one tough association.

Had I been the fan - dad- umpire, rather than publicly jumping on that "umpire", I would have provided written documentation to his assignor / association regarding his lack of basic skills. Even if I had "screwed up" and jumped on him from the stands, I would have written him up when he conducted himself inappropriately two years later. That's a long, long time to remember a slight and hold a grudge. From many of the posts here, as umpires most of us would eject a coach or player that got in our face about an issue from a previous game; but we "support" a fellow umpire that commits the same infraction? How ethical is that, gentlemen?

[Tim C]

A few disconnected thoughts here:

1- Life is about choices. Tim selected to support his son and made a choice to handle it as he did. While I would never place myself in his position I do support him making the choice he did . . . he did something rather than nothing . . . that takes a certain amount of bravery.

2- I umpire with "Rei" . . . please recognize that he is a "by the book" umpire. He calls all the rules equally and fairly in each game. While "Rei" and I will never see eye-to-eye on many, many issues he chooses to deal with happenings in his game in a consistent and strong willed way.

3- I am amazed at the venom from some posters on an official speaking out in a manner that does not support a workig official. I guess I would ask: "if I was a high school basketball coach and a working umpire would I be held to a different standard while coaching my team?" Would I not be able to speak my mind freely to a working basketball official? Let's go a step further: if I pay to go to a major league game and an umpire (crew) seriously misapplies a rule do you folks expect me to do or say nothing if asked by another person in the crowd?

4- In closing was Tim wrong? Maybe . . . but he was only 50% of the incorrect behavior.

Regards,

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That's about as unprofessional as any sports official can get.

What's worse? A mope or a backstabber?

Unbelievable.....

Interesting. I would not have a problem with a parent/umpire quietly informing a coach of a possible rule misapplication, if it was correctable. My ego is not such to prevent me from wanting to get it right, and I am not concerned about the source of the correction, as long as it is done discretely. If it was not correctable, I would expect the umpire/dad to wait until the game is over and approach me in private to discuss the situation.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by rei

Yes, I have ejected spectators. Never an umpire spectator taking jabs at me, but ones who have used profanity towards people on the field, or threats towards people on the field, or taunting players.

In a case like this, I would make sure you were gone if you made comments again. That is big time bush league.

Coming here and talking smack about him is almost as low. He is not here of course to defend himself, and tell HIS version of events. So, we have to take the word of a fellow umpire who yells crappy things to other umpires during games they do then comes on a BBS to talk more smack about them.

Sorry, I lost ANY respect for you I might have had before. You certainly deserve what you have got out of all of this.

And you lost all of OUR respect by saying you'd eject a fan for something that happened 2 years ago - however bad that thing was 2 years ago.

[kraine27]

IMO, there is absolutely no excuse for any umpire (or official for that matter)at any level to take the field/court of play and not have an understanding of the rules. We all have or will make mistakes in judgement but to simply not know or understand the rules is simply lazy. In the original game, where was the PU to help with the balk call (or lack of in this case)? The illegal move got by both of them?

I am now a parent/umpire watching my daughter play softball. It is very difficult watching umpires work softball games that are very clearly in it for the money. There is no excuse for lack of rules knowledge. I can understand a bad positioning or bad judgement, those things happen, but not bad rules knowledge.

I am curious if the BU's association or crew chief or UIC (whatever they are called in your area) had a conversation and training time with this young umpire. I wonder if the BU would have even been receptive of another umpire talking to him about his screw up?

IMHO, two wrongs in this story. I believe the poster has learned and growen from his mistake, has the BU?

[PeteBooth]

There is no excuse for lack of rules knowledge. I can understand a bad positioning or bad judgement, those things happen, but not bad rules knowledge.

How easily people forget

Remember the Indian / O's game.

The point is "it happens to the best of them"

One is judged or let me re-phrase should be judged on a COMPLETE body of work not ONE call or Lack of a call. Look at Mr. Denkinger who received death threats and will be forever remembered for that call at first base, but if one looks at Mr. Denikinger's complete body of work he was regarded by his peers as one of the best.

Balks even blatent one's sometimes are missed. They happen in a heartbeat not because we do not know the rule but just like being out of position we simply "missed it" There are times when I believe most of us said to ourselves "I cannot believe I missed that one - He balked" but we didn't call it.

In Tim's OP we do not know how the ENTIRE game played out. Was this BU who made the no call in position the majority of times to make "other' calls. It's one thing to "get on the official" it's quite another to say You are not worth the $55.00

Pete Booth

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by Tim C

A few disconnected thoughts here:

[I]1- Life is about choices. Tim selected to support his son and made a choice to handle it as he did. While I would never place myself in his position I do support him making the choice he did . . . he did something rather than nothing . . . that takes a certain amount of bravery.

A little over the top don't you think?

If an irate parent yelling insults at an ump is bravery then what must we call the coach who whines, yells and insults the ump for a call on a boy who was not his son and then gets tossed?
The ultimate hero? A martyr? A christlike figure willing to be sacrificed at the alter of bad umping?

Bravery is best left out of this discussion.

As for support, I think most can agree that the best support he could be for his son is just being there and encouraging. Not teaching by example unsportsmanlike behavior is ok when calls don't go your way

[Tim C]

"The ultimate hero? A martyr? A christlike figure willing to be sacrificed at the alter of bad umping?"

Again, it does not pay to say even the most simple of facts on this website.

Knowing Tim as I do he made a well thoughtout and measured response to the calling umpire. He was "probably" not an over-the-top "daddy" type responder.

I said a "certain amount" bravery. And I stand by that.

Tim knew both that as his position as an umpire he could be criticize (or even penalized) for speaking his mind.

The decision to not only confront the original issue but to also bring it here for dicussion showed a "certain amount" of bravery.

Don, after reading your posts for some time there isn't much we agree on . . . this is just another one of those issues.

Regards,