I Guess I Deserved it, or Maybe Not.....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

JR, please explain how misinterpreting a rule is basically a judgment call. The pitcher was in the windup position, stepped back with his free foot, then threw to a fielder to tag Tim's son for an out. That isn't a judgment call, it is a rule misinterpretation by the umpire.

Cool. I now know something that I didn't know before, not being an umpire. That makes it a good day.

But, that still doesn't change my opinion, Steve. Mis-interpreting a rule...hell, completely blowing a call.....is not justification for an umpire to sit in the stands and publicly dump on a fellow umpire. Umpires, the same as all sports officials, range from excellent to horrible. And even the excellent ones might miss or screw-up a call. Publicly criticizing a fellow umpire for one bad call effectively turns that umpire into the world's worst umpire, forever, by anyone in the stands that might hear that public criticism. What you're going to hear from the other fanboys is "Even his fellow umpires think that he's terrible".

Officials in all sports are held to different standards than fans or coaches. We're the only ones that don't care who wins or loses.

Again, jmo......

[lawump]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Ridiculous. Just ridiculous.

Actually, there are numerous persons in our society who (voluntarily) hold positions the result of which is that they are held to a higher standard of conduct...even when they are acting in an area not directly related to the position creating that higher standard.

I don't find that ridiculous at all.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Cool. I now know something that I didn't know before, not being an umpire. That makes it a good day.

But, that still doesn't change my opinion, Steve. Mis-interpreting a rule...hell, completely blowing a call.....is not justification for an umpire to sit in the stands and publicly dump on a fellow umpire. Umpires, the same as all sports officials, range from excellent to horrible. And even the excellent ones might miss or screw-up a call. Publicly criticizing a fellow umpire for one bad call effectively turns that umpire into the world's worst umpire, forever, by anyone in the stands that might hear that public criticism. What you're going to hear from the other fanboys is "Even his fellow umpires think that he's terrible".

Officials in all sports are held to different standards than fans or coaches. We're the only ones that don't care who wins or loses.

Again, jmo......

I agree that there was no justification for Tim to open his mouth against a fellow umpire. The whole point is that Tim knows he was wrong, and brought it out on this forum, opening himself up for a shellacking. I am only commending his courage for admitting his mistake and sharing it with us.

It was also wrong of the so-called umpire to confront Tim prior to the game, which I was also pointing out.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I hate rats as much as the next guy, but I expect a coach to be a coach during a game. I don't care if he's a professional or high level college official -- not even if he's an official of the same sport.

Why should that coach be held to a higher standard because sometimes he's an umpire? During the game, his job is coach. He should feel free to act like any other coach and my methods of dealing with him should be no different than the methods I use when someone else is coaching.

Ridiculous. Just ridiculous.

How about the coach/official that isn't coaching but is simply sitting in the stands watching a game? Do you feel that it's OK for the coach/official to publicly criticize other officials in that setting? Maybe officials that might even be on his own college association?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I agree that there was no justification for Tim to open his mouth against a fellow umpire. The whole point is that Tim knows he was wrong, and brought it out on this forum, opening himself up for a shellacking. I am only commending his courage for admitting his mistake and sharing it with us.

It was also wrong of the so-called umpire to confront Tim prior to the game, which I was also pointing out.

Sounds like we're both kind of in agreement now......

The "no justification" point was exactly the point that I was trying to make.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Maybe it is you that needs to learn to read:

I thought I was clear when I said the bravery was to:

1) Originally face the issue knowing well he could be in trouble for what he did and,

Does this mean he's brave for being unsportsmanlike or he's brave for admitting he was unsportsmanlike?
I'm not too clear
2) Being brave enough to bring this issue to our attention to discuss.

I did not say, nor did I mean to say, the discussion items were brave.

Again, we just can't agree on umpiring and that is fine as we will never, thankfully, work a game together.

I Like Turtles,

I'm sorry Tim, this is the quote I first read and responded too.
Maybe I'm dense but this says nothing about being brave enough to come to a discussion board.

Originally Posted by Tim C

1- Life is about choices. Tim selected to support his son and made a choice to handle it as he did. While I would never place myself in his position I do support him making the choice he did . . . he did something rather than nothing . . . that takes a certain amount of bravery.

But I am glad that you now see it my way and don't put yelling at umpires in the class of bravery!!

We've found our first common ground...Parents yelling at umpires is not brave.

There's hope for us yet Tim

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

You're telling me you've never booed along with your buddies at a major league baseball game? You just sat there and said nothing. Wow, that's restraint.

When I umpire, I fully expect to be booed, as it is rich in tradition of this grand game.

Not in many, many years. I do sometimes wonder what thay saw.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

JR, please explain how misinterpreting a rule is basically a judgment call.

Maybe the umpire "saw" the pitcher step off with the correct foot. Maybe he was confused. Maybe he blinked at that moment. Maybe he chose that moment to ogle a GLM.

None of those are "excuses" but I know I've (likely) missed a call fro some unexplanable reason -- case in point: HS Regional game. I'm PU. R2 scores; defense appeals he missed third. I can see (in my mind's eye) R2 approaching third. I can see him leaving third. I have no effin' idea whether he touched third, so I denied the appeal. Dugout went nuts. I'm "sure" I missed it. I have no idea what happened in that stretch.

[BigUmp56]

I knew when I started the thread there would be many of you that would jump my arse. Truth is I'm glad you did because I deserved it. I already knew there was no excuse for what I did, and believe me, I'm not asking any of you to excuse it. I was wrong...wrong...wrong for saying a word to the guy. I did it though and that cannot be changed. The point of the thread, if there is just one point, is to find out what my brothers in blue think about this guy seeking me out before a game two years after I gave him a hard time in order to issue a threat to me. We talk all the time about starting a game involving a coach we've recently dumped with a new slate. It just didn't seem right to me for him to seek me out and issue issue a pre-game warning to a parent.


Tim.

Originally Posted by mcrowder

And you lost all of OUR respect by saying you'd eject a fan for something that happened 2 years ago - however bad that thing was 2 years ago.

Maybe so, but I KNOW I would do the right thing!

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

We talk all the time about starting a game involving a coach we've recently dumped with a new slate. It just didn't seem right to me for him to seek me out and issue issue a pre-game warning to a parent.


Tim.

You are NOT a coach on the field to extend that kind of courtesy to. You are a sports official. Again, I probably would have done worse!

I am glad that you at least realize HOW wrong it was to do.

Originally Posted by Tim C

umpire with "Rei" . . . please recognize that he is a "by the book" umpire. He calls all the rules equally and fairly in each game. While "Rei" and I will never see eye-to-eye on many, many issues he chooses to deal with happenings in his game in a consistent and strong willed way.

As I recall, YOU were the guy that got up in front of our 145 member association and made the statement:

"Gentlemen, we contract with OSAA for games played under NFHS rules. It is not up to us to decide which rules to enforce and which not to. We are to apply ALL rules in the rule book!"

As I recall, this was a Point of Emphasis in the last two years!!!

"strong willed way". Thank you. I take that as "Taking charge of the situation" type of compliment.

I am not sure what we aren't seeing eye to eye about Tim? We are both required to apply ALL rules out of the NFHS rule book. Now indeed, you think that rubbing dirt on the white stitching of a mitt changes the color to something other than white, even though after a person does this, 999 out of 1000 people would say it is "white". I say that is playing lawyer, and is not in the spirit of the rule. I would consider that a pretty minor difference of opinion about an "issue" eh?

Yelling out to a fellow umpire "You are not worth the $55 they are paying you" while you are in the stands and people around know you are an umpire (or even if they don't)? Hmmmmmmm....I would be ashamed to associate with anybody who thinks that is in ANY way OK!

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by rei

You are NOT a coach on the field to extend that kind of courtesy to. You are a sports official. Again, I probably would have done worse!

I am glad that you at least realize HOW wrong it was to do.

Yes, I'm a sports official, but first and foremost I'm a parent. Before you once again puff out your chest and tell me how much you would have done, let me ask you a simple question. Do you have any of your own sons that play the game of baseball? If so, have you ever seen them called out on a manifestly wrong call in a game that was very important to them?



Tim.

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Yes, I'm a sports official, but first and foremost I'm a parent. Before you once again puff out your chest and tell me how much you would have done, let me ask you a simple question. Do you have any of your own sons that play the game of baseball? If so, have you ever seen them called out on a manifestly wrong call in a game that was very important to them?



Tim.

Nope, no kids of my own. But I have coached girlfriends kids, and have had a vested interest in their success.

What bugs me is that YOU have the responsibility to handle this situation correctly, you didn't, you admit it, but you are still trying to justify it. What that tells me is that you don't really have any sincerity in your admission that you did anything wrong. That fact that you even question where you deserved his response or not tells me the same thing.

You should really think that all through. Your one little comment that you made to make yourself feel better for a brief amount of time caused a LOT of grief to a fellow official, and possibly made his job harder to perform because of it's slanderous nature from an "expert" (which is what bias parents of teammates of you son believe you to be, even though they should know better than to think you can have ANY kind of unbiased outlook on the situation while your son is playing... ).

Then you come on here blasting him some more. What is next? You gonna post his name so we can all seek him out to heckle him during a game?

You are in NO position to defend yourself. You crack open ANY Code of Ethics for ANY of the rule books you ump games under, and I am sure there will be something about your publicly criticizing and/or making disparaging comments about a fellow official.

Trying to defend it on an internet BBS more or less convinces me that you might be just a TAD bit crazy!

[BigUmp56]

No, I wasn't trying to defend what I said. I was attempting to see if you in any way could relate to what it's like to see this happen to your own son. You can't, so think about that before you jump back on your pedestal and tell me what you would have done.


Tim.

[UmpJM]

I would guess that it is well known in his community that Tim is an umpire. So, when he made his disparaging comment to the umpire who made the incorrect call during his son's game, I would guess that to many who heard it at the time, his comment was that of an experienced official (rather than just the mindless drivel of a clueless parent, frequently and regularly heard at youth baseball games).

As such, as Tim obviously knows and has freely admitted, his comments were certainly inappropriate.

However, for the umpire to hold a grudge for over TWO YEARS over a comment made during a youth baseball game and to accost a fan and threaten him before a game is obscenely unprofessional, most certainly conduct unbecoming an umpire, and an infantile response to the situation.

Umpires should conduct themselves like umpires when they arrive at a game site and completely ignore fans unless their conduct affects the progress of the game - even if their feelings were hurt during a game two years ago.

JM