Positioning on throw home

[prosec34]

I was watching the Angels-Orioles game on TV yesterday, and the game ended with Vladamir Guerrero from right gunning down Melvin Mora at the plate. The ball clearly arrived before Mora got to the base, but it looked like Mora arguably got his foot to the plate before the catcher applied the tag.

Trouble is, there was no way the home plate umpire could have discerned which was first: The foot on the plate, or the tag to his midsection. The PU was positioned on the first base side of the plate, looking directly up the left field line. The catcher's body was completely in the way of his line of sight.

I don't consider myself an expert (I've had three years of experience and just had my first varsity high school games this season), but I've always instinctively positioned myself on the third base side. I would think that the majority of close calls would require that I get a clear view of the third base side of the plate, and that position allows me to see it. It seems to me that if you're on the first base side, you're going to blocked out by the catcher a majority of the time.

Tell me if I'm wrong. Perhaps the PU moved in that direction in fear of Guerrero taking his head off. I could understand that, but a little awareness and mobility can take care of that issue, IMO.

[Shmuelg]

He seems also to have had his back to the ball coming in. Sounds dangerous to me.


Shmuel

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by prosec34

I was watching the Angels-Orioles game on TV yesterday, and the game ended with Vladamir Guerrero from right gunning down Melvin Mora at the plate. The ball clearly arrived before Mora got to the base, but it looked like Mora arguably got his foot to the plate before the catcher applied the tag.

Trouble is, there was no way the home plate umpire could have discerned which was first: The foot on the plate, or the tag to his midsection. The PU was positioned on the first base side of the plate, looking directly up the left field line. The catcher's body was completely in the way of his line of sight.

I don't consider myself an expert (I've had three years of experience and just had my first varsity high school games this season), but I've always instinctively positioned myself on the third base side. I would think that the majority of close calls would require that I get a clear view of the third base side of the plate, and that position allows me to see it. It seems to me that if you're on the first base side, you're going to blocked out by the catcher a majority of the time.

Tell me if I'm wrong. Perhaps the PU moved in that direction in fear of Guerrero taking his head off. I could understand that, but a little awareness and mobility can take care of that issue, IMO.

If it's a "swipe tag" play, then 3BLX is usually best. If it's a tag / crash then 1BLX is usually best. Read the play and try to react. Sometimes you get fooled. shrug.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by prosec34

Trouble is, there was no way the home plate umpire could have discerned which was first: The foot on the plate, or the tag to his midsection. The PU was positioned on the first base side of the plate, looking directly up the left field line. The catcher's body was completely in the way of his line of sight.

I don't understand your description. If the PU was on the first base side of the plate how can he be looking straight up the third base line? He would have an angle on the play.

[prosec34]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I don't understand your description. If the PU was on the first base side of the plate how can he be looking straight up the third base line? He would have an angle on the play.

Yeah, I didn't describe that right. He's not on the first base "edge of the plate," if you will. He's simply behind the plate looking straight up the third base line.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I don't understand your description. If the PU was on the first base side of the plate how can he be looking straight up the third base line? He would have an angle on the play.

C'mon, Garth. Do you really not understand or are you playing that way to get the OP to post a better description. Even dense lil old me knew he meant 3BLX (as on the first base side of the plate).

[JR12]

I like the position Gerry Davis had (3blx) mostly for the swipe tag.
Melvin Mora was safe on the replay. His foot was acrossed the plate when the catcher applied the tag to his thigh.
I think the reason he was called out was the ball beat him by 5 feet. The Orioles did not argue, although he was the tie run in the bottom of the 9th and the play ended the game with an O's loss.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

C'mon, Garth. Do you really not understand or are you playing that way to get the OP to post a better description. Even dense lil old me knew he meant 3BLX (as on the first base side of the plate).

No. I really didn't think the two parts of his description added up. I visualized PU setting up 3BLX as they are trained and then adjusting to the play by taking a step to the right to get an angle.

[kraine27]

I attended the NCAA meetings for the first time this past spring and was in attandance of a class taught by Dave Yeast on taking plays at the plate.

NCAA is wanting the umpires to take an initial position at the point of the plate extended and then adjust to the play. In the situation outlined above, two of the more posssible plays that could happen with a throw coming from F8 would be a swipe tag or a play where the catcher may have to dive. I would have taken the third base line extended as well. With that said, Yeast did say that if you were to draw 3rd base extended and 1st base extended and take the "cone" area between those lines, that any place in that "cone" would be an acceptable position to make that call. So, I would not totally discount a 1st base line extended view of this play.

[RPatrino]

I'm with Garth on this one, the description of the play in the OP implied that the PU was in 3BLX, however when he said "The catcher's body was completely in the way of his line of sight". That implied to me that the PU was in 1BLX. Unless the PU was in 3BLX and was looking at the catcher's back, which I find hard to believe.

[DonInKansas]

Gerry Davis was looking at the catcher's back.

Video: (Play's about halfway in)
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270701101

[prosec34]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

I'm with Garth on this one, the description of the play in the OP implied that the PU was in 3BLX, however when he said "The catcher's body was completely in the way of his line of sight". That implied to me that the PU was in 1BLX. Unless the PU was in 3BLX and was looking at the catcher's back, which I find hard to believe.

You know, the object of this thread isn't to parse and dissect my question as much as it's to answer the question. I think I corrected any confusion in my later post.

I'm simply seeking guidance from more experienced and trained umpires since I get so little of that in my association.

As far as using the 1BLX angle to see the swipe tag, it seems you can be just as effective from the 3BLX spot while still not blocking yourself out on the play made in the Angels-Os game.

[RPatrino]

Don, thanks for providing the video clip, it does show GD in 3blx, and possibly getting straight lined on the play.

Prosec, I apologize if I seemed to parse your post. It is important to understand the situation, in order to answer your specific question. Bob Jenkins answered your question.

What this situation clearly illustrates is that regardless of which plate position you decide to use on a particular play, you MUST be willing to adjust that position to avoid being blocked by the catcher or the runner.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Don, thanks for providing the video clip, it does show GD in 3blx, and possibly getting straight lined on the play.

So much for previous threads where it was said by the most preeiminet posters on ths Forum, " Good and well trained umpires NEVER get straightlined".

Of which, I totally disagreed. Davis should turn his paycheck back in and quit, I suppose.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by fitump56

So much for previous threads where it was said by the most preeiminet posters on ths Forum, " Good and well trained umpires NEVER get straightlined".

Of which, I totally disagreed. Davis should turn his paycheck back in and quit, I suppose.

And of course, you as usual took the comments out of context.

In the previous thread we were all discussing infield positioning for the BU on plays at first, in which there is no excuse to get "straight-lined."

In the case which we are discussing currently, we are talking about the PU in 3BLX, where it is extremely possible to get "straight-lined."