what's up with Div. 1 umps

[dokeeffe]

Two different super regionals. Two different calls. Both changed (incorrectly) after a gathereing of the umps. One a tag / no tag down the firsty base line and the other a first baseman holding the bag or not. Both original calls correct according to instant replay. What ever happened to "coach it's may call and there wasn't a tag" or "it's my call and he held the bag".

Instead both crews look like idiots undeserving of a playoff spot.

[JRutledge]

This is the problem with the "ask for help" or "get it right" communities. If you have everyone talking after simply plays, you will have mistakes. Forget the D1 level, every damn play that was close in the games I was involved in coaches wanted help to be asked for. This has become an epidemic at all levels. Then we appease the coach for a play that should not be changed on any level.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is the problem with the "ask for help" or "get it right" communities. If you have everyone talking after simply plays, you will have mistakes. Forget the D1 level, every damn play that was close in the games I was involved in coaches wanted help to be asked for. This has become an epidemic at all levels. Then we appease the coach for a play that should not be changed on any level.

Peace

Can the umpires even say no to these help requests anymore?

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Can the umpires even say no to these help requests anymore?

Yes, an umpire can refuse to go to his partner. Here's an example:

Batter swings and the ball slowly rolls up the line towards third base and beats the throw to first. Defensive coach is granted time and comes to the PU.

C: Blue, that had to be foul, the ball contacted to batters foot.

PU: I've got a fair ball, I never saw the ball hit the batter's foot.

C: Can you get some help from your partner, he was looking in on the play and had a better angle?

PU: No coach, I'm not going to my partner on this one. That's an immediate call. Had my partner seen the ball hit the batter's foot, he would have killed the play had he seen it. Let's play ball coach.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MichaelVA2000

Yes, an umpire can refuse to go to his partner. Here's an example:

Batter swings and the ball slowly rolls up the line towards third base and beats the throw to first. Defensive coach is granted time and comes to the PU.

C: Blue, that had to be foul, the ball contacted to batters foot.

PU: I've got a fair ball, I never saw the ball hit the batter's foot.

C: Can you get some help from your partner, he was looking in on the play and had a better angle?

PU: No coach, I'm not going to my partner on this one. That's an immediate call. Had my partner seen the ball hit the batter's foot, he would have killed the play had he seen it. Let's play ball coach.

What about the pulled foot scenario (the original play)? I know at the D3 level, I would NOT have gotten help and would NOT have entertained the coach's request. Can the DI umpires working reg and super-reg refuse the request without repercussions from Yeast, et. al.?

If an umpire in A is getting help, why are we even hiring him?

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Can the umpires even say no to these help requests anymore?

I do it all the time!

Coach - "Blue, you need to check with your partner on that".

Me - "Coach, I've got the call. If I needed help, I would have gotten it before I made the call. Let's get back to the game now!"

I rarely call a conference except on obstruction. That is one call where you may need the input of your PU. He is supposed to be watching the "big picture" in most cases so he can help place runners to the correct bases. Other than that, I'm within 20 feet of the call, why do I want to "huddle" with people that are 50 to 100 feet away?

Regards

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

I do it all the time!

Coach - "Blue, you need to check with your partner on that".

Me - "Coach, I've got the call. If I needed help, I would have gotten it before I made the call. Let's get back to the game now!"

I rarely call a conference except on obstruction. That is one call where you may need the input of your PU. He is supposed to be watching the "big picture" in most cases so he can help place runners to the correct bases. Other than that, I'm within 20 feet of the call, why do I want to "huddle" with people that are 50 to 100 feet away?

Regards

Ozzy, there is a special emphasis at the NCAA, and especially the Division I level, for "getting it right." So I'm specifically addressing that level.

I have no problems telling people to pound sand, where appropriate.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Ozzy, there is a special emphasis at the NCAA, and especially the Division I level, for "getting it right." So I'm specifically addressing that level.

I have no problems telling people to pound sand, where appropriate.

I realize that Rich. I have several D1 guys on our board and they agree. The "huddling" is getting out of hand. They only get together for certain things, not every other call (as the case has been).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Can the umpires even say no to these help requests anymore?

I do all the time when I know my partner was not in position and when it is clear I have the call. For example if I am in the A position and there is a pulled foot or tag issue. I several times this year flat out told a coach I was not asking for help on these plays. I was not popular, but who cares. I am not in this for the popularity contest.

Peace

[LakeErieUmp]

Mr. Rutledge - while I often do not agree with you I would happily work with you! You're my kind of umpire!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp

Mr. Rutledge - while I often do not agree with you I would happily work with you! You're my kind of umpire!

I agree, I applaud his stance on this. Me too.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do all the time when I know my partner was not in position and when it is clear I have the call. For example if I am in the A position and there is a pulled foot or tag issue. I several times this year flat out told a coach I was not asking for help on these plays. I was not popular, but who cares. I am not in this for the popularity contest.

Peace

A fellow D1 umpire was talking to me on the phone about this huddling for help thing, specifically about the pulled foot off first base play. My question to my friend Dave was, "Why the hell in a 4-man crew was the first base umpire getting help from his plate umpire? How could a first base ump in a 4-man crew blow this call anyway?"

In a 2-man or 3-man crew I can see this, because sometimes we have to make the call from the "B" or "C" position, where we are at a much greater disadvantage; but from the "A" position, there is no excuse for a guy not making this call correctly 100% of the time.

Me? I'm not going to ask for help on this. At all. Besides, I operate under the "change the umpire and not the call" philosophy: if I'm not sure (from the "B" or "C" positions) if a guy pulled his foot off the bag, I go to my partner before making the call to see if he saw F3 pull off. I've never had a problem doing it this way, because it's much better than making the call, then having to go to him afterward, only to reverse the call.

[tibear]

Originally Posted by UMP25

A fellow D1 umpire was talking to me on the phone about this huddling for help thing, specifically about the pulled foot off first base play. My question to my friend Dave was, "Why the hell in a 4-man crew was the first base umpire getting help from his plate umpire? How could a first base ump in a 4-man crew blow this call anyway?"

In a 2-man or 3-man crew I can see this, because sometimes we have to make the call from the "B" or "C" position, where we are at a much greater disadvantage; but from the "A" position, there is no excuse for a guy not making this call correctly 100% of the time.

Me? I'm not going to ask for help on this. At all. Besides, I operate under the "change the umpire and not the call" philosophy: if I'm not sure (from the "B" or "C" positions) if a guy pulled his foot off the bag, I go to my partner before making the call to see if he saw F3 pull off. I've never had a problem doing it this way, because it's much better than making the call, then having to go to him afterward, only to reverse the call.

I completely agree with you that if your 100% of a call, why bother getting together and discussing it. One of the first things your told when you become an umpire is trust your eyes and make your call based upon what you see. All of this "group discussion" re-inforces the opposite. If your not 100% then sure talk about it, otherwise, let's play ball!!!

Quick question with regards to going to partner before making the call, what if you don't have time to go to your partner. That is, F3 after possibly pulling his foot early off first throws home to get a play at home. What do you do with the call at first? Assume the foot was on and make the out call and then wait for the defense to discuss? Call the runner out and wait for the offense to complain? Certainly you wouldn't wait until the entire play ends before making this call.

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Can the umpires even say no to these help requests anymore?

Rich, when Carl was an active member of the internet Forums, he posted his infamous FAB 5 on when calls could be legally changed.

Carl's list also sparked a HUGE debate espeically with the word Legally.

I realize Carl's list is outdated, but look what's happened since. This "getting the call right" business is overhyped and has gotten out of hand and if one stuck with the list Carl posted, would make all our lives easier.

The fact is We will not get the call right and in some instances calls which were originally called correctly are getting reversed and are now incorrect.

Once you start asking for help it NEVER ends.

Pete Booth

[ggk]

i've recently adopted the "2 steps fair" for plays at first. you get a great look at the possible pulled foot from this angle. this is my first year doing college ball and i had play where F3 had to stretch for a throw and clearly came off the bag. i called the runner safe and sold it by indicating that F3 was off the bag. defensive coach went ballistic and demanded that i get help. i refused to do so for the reasons that have been previously stated. i had a great look at the play from 15-20 ft away. there was no way i could go to my partner for help on that play.
i know "get it right" is the mantra and i'm all for that, but is there any ncaa policy which requires us to confer on such a play just to keep a coach happy? i considered going to my partner and telling him that i have the call, but i just want to placate the coach - but i chose to stick it out and take the heat. the only downside for doing so is that you look stubborn and bullheaded in the eyes of the coach. is pride worth creating such an impression?