what's up with Div. 1 umps

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Can the umpires even say no to these help requests anymore?

Rich, when Carl was an active member of the internet Forums, he posted his infamous FAB 5 on when calls could be legally changed.

Carl's list also sparked a HUGE debate espeically with the word Legally.

I realize Carl's list is outdated, but look what's happened since. This "getting the call right" business is overhyped and has gotten out of hand and if one stuck with the list Carl posted, would make all our lives easier.

The fact is We will not get the call right and in some instances calls which were originally called correctly are getting reversed and are now incorrect.

Once you start asking for help it NEVER ends.

Pete Booth

[GarthB]

As many have argued in the past when the warm-fuzzy advocates repeated their "get it right, get it right, get it right" chant, there is no guarantee that the non-calling umpire who interjects his opinon has it right.

Funny how these same warmfuzzies become silent when we have so clear an example of why they are wrong.

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by GarthB

As many have argued in the past when the warm-fuzzy advocates repeated their "get it right, get it right, get it right" chant, there is no guarantee that the non-calling umpire who interjects his opinon has it right.

Funny how these same warmfuzzies become silent when we have so clear an example of why they are wrong.

Gath in order to stop this madness especially in a 2 person crew do you think our protocol has to change?

Ie; You and I have the game. I have the bases and you the dish. one of these swipe tag pulled foot plays is at first and I make an out call.

Coach is "screaming' for me to get help etc.

Now I Know I can basically tell him to "pound salt" but rather than be advisarial I appease the coach and ask you for help.

However, you simply "mirror" my call. If umpire associations in the "beginning" stuck togther and it became known that for all practical purposes the call stands, eventually coaches would get the message and stop asking us to get help.

Is it a good idea or not?

Thanks

Pete Booth

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Gath in order to stop this madness especially in a 2 person crew do you think our protocol has to change?

Ie; You and I have the game. I have the bases and you the dish. one of these swipe tag pulled foot plays is at first and I make an out call.

Coach is "screaming' for me to get help etc.

Now I Know I can basically tell him to "pound salt" but rather than be advisarial I appease the coach and ask you for help.

However, you simply "mirror" my call. If umpire associations in the "beginning" stuck togther and it became known that for all practical purposes the call stands, eventually coaches would get the message and stop asking us to get help.

Is it a good idea or not?

Thanks

Pete Booth

Pete:

I belong to the "Five Calls You Can Change" school. (I don't refer to it as Carl's list, because I've also heard it from professional umpires.)

However, even with some of these, a pulled foot, for example, I will not go to my partner if I'm 100% good with my call, and I have already made my call. Any help on this or a swipe tag, in my practice, must be requested before a call is made.

That said, a decision made to go to your partner, I believe, should result in your partner giving what he has, provided he feels 100% confident of his call. Even a 99% confidence factor should lead to his yielding to your call.

[btdt]

" i considered going to my partner and telling him that i have the call, but i just want to placate the coach - but i chose to stick it out and take the heat. the only downside for doing so is that you look stubborn and bullheaded in the eyes of the coach. is pride worth creating such an impression?"

I consider it keeping control of the game, not "pride". If you let the coach dictate the actions of the umpire, might as well let him call the game for you from the bench. If you feel you need help, go for it. But don't let anyone else decide your actions

[Rich]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Gath in order to stop this madness especially in a 2 person crew do you think our protocol has to change?

Ie; You and I have the game. I have the bases and you the dish. one of these swipe tag pulled foot plays is at first and I make an out call.

Coach is "screaming' for me to get help etc.

Now I Know I can basically tell him to "pound salt" but rather than be advisarial I appease the coach and ask you for help.

However, you simply "mirror" my call. If umpire associations in the "beginning" stuck togther and it became known that for all practical purposes the call stands, eventually coaches would get the message and stop asking us to get help.

Is it a good idea or not?

Thanks

Pete Booth

Why is telling him to pound sand adversarial yet him coming to you and trying to get you to shop your call NOT adversarial?

I told a coach a few weeks ago in a regional HS final on this VERY situation (pulled foot situation, I'm in A): One call, one umpire. He didn't like it. Tough noogies. He didn't ask again.

[TussAgee11]

But is there a place for asking for help in the realm of game management? Perhaps he wants a check swing appeal on something that was not even close. He is a known problem and will probably get upset if you don't give it to him. So you point to your partner, he gives the SAFE, and we go on. Seems to me that is avoiding a confrentation and not giving the appearance that you are looking for trouble as the umpire.

Just because he asks for help does not mean the call needs to change. I do understand the precedent it sets with that coach, and others, when you go for help on a pulled foot or swipe tag. My point is that in certain situations, from a game management perspective, it may not be a bad idea to make it look like you are discussing the call, even if you know it is not going to be reversed.

I'm not out to please coaches (trust me), but if I can squash a confrentation before it has a chance to stew, I'm all for it.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

But is there a place for asking for help in the realm of game management? Perhaps he wants a check swing appeal on something that was not even close. He is a known problem and will probably get upset if you don't give it to him. So you point to your partner, he gives the SAFE, and we go on. Seems to me that is avoiding a confrentation and not giving the appearance that you are looking for trouble as the umpire.

Just because he asks for help does not mean the call needs to change. I do understand the precedent it sets with that coach, and others, when you go for help on a pulled foot or swipe tag. My point is that in certain situations, from a game management perspective, it may not be a bad idea to make it look like you are discussing the call, even if you know it is not going to be reversed.

I'm not out to please coaches (trust me), but if I can squash a confrentation before it has a chance to stew, I'm all for it.

If, in a Fed game, not allowing an appeal on a check swing creates a confrontation then you're in for a possible long day. If as you say the coach is a known problem this is one of many opportunities to establish yourself quickly, let the coach know you're in charge and get on with it.
And if you're lucky this may give you an early opportunity to eliminate the known problem.
If I'm certain of a call I will not go to my P for help.
If my P agrees with me then all I've done is submitted to a coaches desire and set a precedent for the day and my call stands. No advantage to me.
If my P disagrees then I either have to change my call, which I am confident is right(not good in many ways) or keep the call as is and drag my P into the mess (not good)
The only advantage is that we may placate the coach for the moment but chances are good that we've only fed the little monster and he'll be coming back for more later.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

If, in a Fed game, not allowing an appeal on a check swing creates a confrontation then you're in for a possible long day. If as you say the coach is a known problem this is one of many opportunities to establish yourself quickly, let the coach know you're in charge and get on with it.
And if you're lucky this may give you an early opportunity to eliminate the known problem.
If I'm certain of a call I will not go to my P for help.
If my P agrees with me then all I've done is submitted to a coaches desire and set a precedent for the day and my call stands. No advantage to me.
If my P disagrees then I either have to change my call, which I am confident is right(not good in many ways) or keep the call as is and drag my P into the mess (not good)
The only advantage is that we may placate the coach for the moment but chances are good that we've only fed the little monster and he'll be coming back for more later.

I have and will reject checked swing appeals in FED games. First of all not all of those requests are very legit or credible. Often if the batter flinches they want a request. Now if the bat is clearly out there and I do not see it, I have no problem asking for help with my partner in any position. And if I think he attempted and I see it, I will make the call myself. I have made more of these calls behind the plate on my own in the last few years. I also sell it if the call is close, but clear to me.

Once again, I do not care what a coach thinks. I am not there to appease coaches. I am assigned to do a job and that is what I am going to do. If the coach does not like me, I likely passed many schools to work this game so personally who gives a damn what a particular coach thinks. Now what I will do is hustle, get in position whenever possible and if that is not enough, I will work somewhere else. I used to try to avoid confrontation and it got me no where. Even when I would try, I would somehow get into bigger confrontations. If you have no noticed umpires and officials in different sports follow all the procedures to the letter and they still get ripped by a coach because the call did not go their way. You are never going to make these clowns happy.

Peace

[Mrumpiresir]

I always tell my partners that if I come to them on a checked swing or a pulled foot immediately I want to know what they have because I did not get a good look at the play. If a coach complains and insists I get help, I will go to my P after a short delay but expect him to confirm my call. This usually works. Now if my partner overrules me, I have to go along with his call.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by Mrumpiresir

I always tell my partners that if I come to them on a checked swing or a pulled foot immediately I want to know what they have because I did not get a good look at the play. If a coach complains and insists I get help, I will go to my P after a short delay but expect him to confirm my call. This usually works. Now if my partner overrules me, I have to go along with his call.

I'm confused, but I get confused easily.

I hope you only go to P on check swing appeal if asked and reasonably speaking that is right away. So when would there be such a delay on a check swing that you would expect your P to confirm your call?

If you have made an out call on a play at first I'm assuming you saw an out.
If you go to your P to placate a coach after the out call I would suggest you do this in private conference and not yelling across the infield. If it's in conference then you cannot be overruled and you still have a choice to change the call or not.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mrumpiresir

I always tell my partners that if I come to them on a checked swing or a pulled foot immediately I want to know what they have because I did not get a good look at the play. If a coach complains and insists I get help, I will go to my P after a short delay but expect him to confirm my call. This usually works. Now if my partner overrules me, I have to go along with his call.

If you do not want help, do not ask for help. If you ask me for help, I am giving you what I got. It does not matter what you called.

Peace

[Justme]

Originally Posted by dokeeffe

Two different super regionals. Two different calls. Both changed (incorrectly) after a gathereing of the umps. One a tag / no tag down the firsty base line and the other a first baseman holding the bag or not. Both original calls correct according to instant replay. What ever happened to "coach it's may call and there wasn't a tag" or "it's my call and he held the bag".

Instead both crews look like idiots undeserving of a playoff spot.

This is from the 2005 NCAA Baseball Division 1 Championship Game Officials Manual, the last one I've seen, but I doubt that this section has been changed. Like it or not this is how it's taught.... You do it the NCAA's way or you don't work the big games. As you read you'll see that the umpire's do not have to go for help but it is urged in certain situations (section B & D). I always found section C most interesting and the most difficult for me to follow at first.


6.11 Getting the call right

The first requisite of an umpire is to ultimately get all decisions correct. Umpire pride is important, but never as important as getting the play right. It is the philosophy of the NCAA that umpires always seek to get the call right. This may involve the reversal of a previously rendered decision. However, the correct decision – not the pride of any umpire – must prevail.

Following are general guidelines for this policy:
A) NCAA rule 3-6-f states “No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire’s decision, unless asked by the one making it; however, if there is a misinterpretation of a rule, it should be brought to the attention of the umpire-in-chief.” Therefore, except in special situations such as those outlined in the next paragraph, the umpire making the call must be the one to seek assistance of a partner.
B) An umpire is urged to seek help when his view is blocked or positioning prevents him from seeing crucial elements of a play. An umpire is also encouraged to seek help in instances when he has any doubt and a partner has additional information that could lead to the proper ruling.
C) In the situations listed below, a partner who is 100% certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information. However, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the calling umpire.
1) Deciding if a home run is fair or foul.
2) Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground rule double.
3) Cases where a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher.
4) Cases where a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.
5) Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because they did not see the ball dropped or juggled after making a tag or force.
6) Spectator interference plays.
7) Balks called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher’s foot was off the rubber.
D) Umpires are not to seek help on plays which they are 100% confident in their judgment and view of the play. Head coaches are not entitled to a second opinion when the calling umpire is certain his decision is correct. On the other hand, and contrary to past practice, umpires are not to “die with a call” in cases where a) the calling umpire is not 100% certain he is right; and b) another umpire has additional information which could lead to a proper ruling. Both NCAA philosophy and umpire integrity – consistent with NCAA rules – dictate that calls be reversed in this situation.
E) Skipped, tells how to conference.
F) Judgment calls, which have traditionally not been subject to reversal include: steal and other tag plays (except if the ball is dropped without the umpire’s knowledge as discussed above); force plays (when the ball is not dropped and foot is not pulled); balls and strikes (other than check swings). This practice shall continue. Also, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a “catch/no catch” with multiple runners.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do all the time when I know my partner was not in position and when it is clear I have the call. For example if I am in the A position and there is a pulled foot or tag issue. I several times this year flat out told a coach I was not asking for help on these plays. I was not popular, but who cares. I am not in this for the popularity contest.

Peace

A fellow D1 umpire was talking to me on the phone about this huddling for help thing, specifically about the pulled foot off first base play. My question to my friend Dave was, "Why the hell in a 4-man crew was the first base umpire getting help from his plate umpire? How could a first base ump in a 4-man crew blow this call anyway?"

In a 2-man or 3-man crew I can see this, because sometimes we have to make the call from the "B" or "C" position, where we are at a much greater disadvantage; but from the "A" position, there is no excuse for a guy not making this call correctly 100% of the time.

Me? I'm not going to ask for help on this. At all. Besides, I operate under the "change the umpire and not the call" philosophy: if I'm not sure (from the "B" or "C" positions) if a guy pulled his foot off the bag, I go to my partner before making the call to see if he saw F3 pull off. I've never had a problem doing it this way, because it's much better than making the call, then having to go to him afterward, only to reverse the call.

[tibear]

Originally Posted by UMP25

A fellow D1 umpire was talking to me on the phone about this huddling for help thing, specifically about the pulled foot off first base play. My question to my friend Dave was, "Why the hell in a 4-man crew was the first base umpire getting help from his plate umpire? How could a first base ump in a 4-man crew blow this call anyway?"

In a 2-man or 3-man crew I can see this, because sometimes we have to make the call from the "B" or "C" position, where we are at a much greater disadvantage; but from the "A" position, there is no excuse for a guy not making this call correctly 100% of the time.

Me? I'm not going to ask for help on this. At all. Besides, I operate under the "change the umpire and not the call" philosophy: if I'm not sure (from the "B" or "C" positions) if a guy pulled his foot off the bag, I go to my partner before making the call to see if he saw F3 pull off. I've never had a problem doing it this way, because it's much better than making the call, then having to go to him afterward, only to reverse the call.

I completely agree with you that if your 100% of a call, why bother getting together and discussing it. One of the first things your told when you become an umpire is trust your eyes and make your call based upon what you see. All of this "group discussion" re-inforces the opposite. If your not 100% then sure talk about it, otherwise, let's play ball!!!

Quick question with regards to going to partner before making the call, what if you don't have time to go to your partner. That is, F3 after possibly pulling his foot early off first throws home to get a play at home. What do you do with the call at first? Assume the foot was on and make the out call and then wait for the defense to discuss? Call the runner out and wait for the offense to complain? Certainly you wouldn't wait until the entire play ends before making this call.