what's up with Div. 1 umps

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by ggk

i considered going to my partner and telling him that i have the call, but i just want to placate the coach - but i chose to stick it out and take the heat. the only downside for doing so is that you look stubborn and bullheaded in the eyes of the coach. is pride worth creating such an impression?

And the downside of going to your partner just to please the coach is that now you've dragged him into the fire with you. If you're positive that you got the call right, tell the coach that. I'd rather seem bullheaded than give the coach a reason to take shots at my partner, IMO.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by ggk

is pride worth creating such an impression?

Yes.. ..........

[GarthB]

As many have argued in the past when the warm-fuzzy advocates repeated their "get it right, get it right, get it right" chant, there is no guarantee that the non-calling umpire who interjects his opinon has it right.

Funny how these same warmfuzzies become silent when we have so clear an example of why they are wrong.

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by GarthB

As many have argued in the past when the warm-fuzzy advocates repeated their "get it right, get it right, get it right" chant, there is no guarantee that the non-calling umpire who interjects his opinon has it right.

Funny how these same warmfuzzies become silent when we have so clear an example of why they are wrong.

Gath in order to stop this madness especially in a 2 person crew do you think our protocol has to change?

Ie; You and I have the game. I have the bases and you the dish. one of these swipe tag pulled foot plays is at first and I make an out call.

Coach is "screaming' for me to get help etc.

Now I Know I can basically tell him to "pound salt" but rather than be advisarial I appease the coach and ask you for help.

However, you simply "mirror" my call. If umpire associations in the "beginning" stuck togther and it became known that for all practical purposes the call stands, eventually coaches would get the message and stop asking us to get help.

Is it a good idea or not?

Thanks

Pete Booth

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Gath in order to stop this madness especially in a 2 person crew do you think our protocol has to change?

Ie; You and I have the game. I have the bases and you the dish. one of these swipe tag pulled foot plays is at first and I make an out call.

Coach is "screaming' for me to get help etc.

Now I Know I can basically tell him to "pound salt" but rather than be advisarial I appease the coach and ask you for help.

However, you simply "mirror" my call. If umpire associations in the "beginning" stuck togther and it became known that for all practical purposes the call stands, eventually coaches would get the message and stop asking us to get help.

Is it a good idea or not?

Thanks

Pete Booth

Pete:

I belong to the "Five Calls You Can Change" school. (I don't refer to it as Carl's list, because I've also heard it from professional umpires.)

However, even with some of these, a pulled foot, for example, I will not go to my partner if I'm 100% good with my call, and I have already made my call. Any help on this or a swipe tag, in my practice, must be requested before a call is made.

That said, a decision made to go to your partner, I believe, should result in your partner giving what he has, provided he feels 100% confident of his call. Even a 99% confidence factor should lead to his yielding to your call.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Gath in order to stop this madness especially in a 2 person crew do you think our protocol has to change?

Ie; You and I have the game. I have the bases and you the dish. one of these swipe tag pulled foot plays is at first and I make an out call.

Coach is "screaming' for me to get help etc.

Now I Know I can basically tell him to "pound salt" but rather than be advisarial I appease the coach and ask you for help.

However, you simply "mirror" my call. If umpire associations in the "beginning" stuck togther and it became known that for all practical purposes the call stands, eventually coaches would get the message and stop asking us to get help.

Is it a good idea or not?

Thanks

Pete Booth

Why is telling him to pound sand adversarial yet him coming to you and trying to get you to shop your call NOT adversarial?

I told a coach a few weeks ago in a regional HS final on this VERY situation (pulled foot situation, I'm in A): One call, one umpire. He didn't like it. Tough noogies. He didn't ask again.

[btdt]

" i considered going to my partner and telling him that i have the call, but i just want to placate the coach - but i chose to stick it out and take the heat. the only downside for doing so is that you look stubborn and bullheaded in the eyes of the coach. is pride worth creating such an impression?"

I consider it keeping control of the game, not "pride". If you let the coach dictate the actions of the umpire, might as well let him call the game for you from the bench. If you feel you need help, go for it. But don't let anyone else decide your actions

[Justme]

Originally Posted by dokeeffe

Two different super regionals. Two different calls. Both changed (incorrectly) after a gathereing of the umps. One a tag / no tag down the firsty base line and the other a first baseman holding the bag or not. Both original calls correct according to instant replay. What ever happened to "coach it's may call and there wasn't a tag" or "it's my call and he held the bag".

Instead both crews look like idiots undeserving of a playoff spot.

This is from the 2005 NCAA Baseball Division 1 Championship Game Officials Manual, the last one I've seen, but I doubt that this section has been changed. Like it or not this is how it's taught.... You do it the NCAA's way or you don't work the big games. As you read you'll see that the umpire's do not have to go for help but it is urged in certain situations (section B & D). I always found section C most interesting and the most difficult for me to follow at first.


6.11 Getting the call right

The first requisite of an umpire is to ultimately get all decisions correct. Umpire pride is important, but never as important as getting the play right. It is the philosophy of the NCAA that umpires always seek to get the call right. This may involve the reversal of a previously rendered decision. However, the correct decision – not the pride of any umpire – must prevail.

Following are general guidelines for this policy:
A) NCAA rule 3-6-f states “No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire’s decision, unless asked by the one making it; however, if there is a misinterpretation of a rule, it should be brought to the attention of the umpire-in-chief.” Therefore, except in special situations such as those outlined in the next paragraph, the umpire making the call must be the one to seek assistance of a partner.
B) An umpire is urged to seek help when his view is blocked or positioning prevents him from seeing crucial elements of a play. An umpire is also encouraged to seek help in instances when he has any doubt and a partner has additional information that could lead to the proper ruling.
C) In the situations listed below, a partner who is 100% certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information. However, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the calling umpire.
1) Deciding if a home run is fair or foul.
2) Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground rule double.
3) Cases where a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher.
4) Cases where a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.
5) Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because they did not see the ball dropped or juggled after making a tag or force.
6) Spectator interference plays.
7) Balks called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher’s foot was off the rubber.
D) Umpires are not to seek help on plays which they are 100% confident in their judgment and view of the play. Head coaches are not entitled to a second opinion when the calling umpire is certain his decision is correct. On the other hand, and contrary to past practice, umpires are not to “die with a call” in cases where a) the calling umpire is not 100% certain he is right; and b) another umpire has additional information which could lead to a proper ruling. Both NCAA philosophy and umpire integrity – consistent with NCAA rules – dictate that calls be reversed in this situation.
E) Skipped, tells how to conference.
F) Judgment calls, which have traditionally not been subject to reversal include: steal and other tag plays (except if the ball is dropped without the umpire’s knowledge as discussed above); force plays (when the ball is not dropped and foot is not pulled); balls and strikes (other than check swings). This practice shall continue. Also, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a “catch/no catch” with multiple runners.