Game Management??

[Jimology]

3 Apples,

Would you make up rules to extend a good game? Of course not. Can't make up rules shorten bad one either.

[RPatrino]

I had a much worse situation tonight, HS level play, two teams that definitely were inferior. Final score, 37-7. I seriously considered (but did not) widen or alter the zone, even though the pitchers struggled throughout. Winning coach was stealing, taking the extra base, etc. etc.

3apples, I feel your pain!!! However, we are not on the field to provide our opinions on how the coach should be handling their team or their business. Call your game, the same game you would use in a 1-0 game, from the 1st inning to the last.

Oh, and BTW, I actually had a spectator interference call. A kid in foul territory picked up a live ball and handed it to the left fielder...Sheeze.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

A kid in foul territory picked up a live ball and handed it to the left fielder...Sheeze.

How on earth did a play get off with a kid in liveball territory?

[ChapJim]

Originally Posted by GarthB

How on earth did a play get off with a kid in liveball territory?

All he said was a kid picked up a live ball, not that the kid was in liveball territory when the play started. If all you have is a line, maybe an imaginary one at that, it's pretty easy for a kid to step across and pick up a ball headed his way.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GarthB

How on earth did a play get off with a kid in liveball territory?

Are you saying you wait while a dugout person chases down a foul ball that's against the fence down the line?

[mcrowder]

Apples, I think you're going to find it pretty unanimous - just call the game. There are those who will stretch the strikezone a bit (I don't - but some do and I don't fault them for it), but you surely don't want to be "looking for outs" or calling interference when it isn't there.

But to me, the worst thing you did was lecture the kid about running up the score. If there is any sportsmanship talk that needs to occur, it's with a coach, not a player (and in my opinion, it shouldn't come from the umpire, but rather from the coach's supervisor). How do you know the coach didn't put in his backup backup 2B, who bats 4-5 times a season. That kid is trying to show his coach he can steal a base. It is NOT our place to tell kids not to try their hardest in every situation. Shame on the coach ... but never the player.

I have "stretched" things in a manner like you describe exactly twice. Both similar... the most recent - one team was just KILLING the other and the bad team just couldn't throw strikes at all. 30-something to 2 or 3. The coach, for about 6 batters, was chiding his players if they didn't swing at anything close (meaning head-high and 6 inches outside). After about 6 batters he calls time and comes to me - tells me just to call anything within reach a strike, just to get his kids to swing. And even with "permission", it took me another 4-5 batters before I really did what he asked, and it felt wrong to do it.

[3appleshigh]

I don't completely disagree with you guys. In fact 99% of me completely agrees. That is why I posted. However, the problem in this league is hot heads and ejections and fights. The schools involved are notorious for having major issues, I was looking at this as a Game management issue Re Making sure no Fights or bad blood, which was very likely, but tempers cooled after this play. The finishing the game aspect was more a before they brawlled, not a get out of a bad game thing. It was 6 runs into that inning, I had no problem with them continuing to play, but wasn't about to have a brawl on my hands. I argued with myself over that call, but I think in this situation, I probably stopped a bigger uglier incident. I still am not sure that was worth doing what I did.

In regards to the player, he was the best player on either team, had played for his provincial team for his age group, and to be honest should have known better. I agree I probably shouldn't have said anything, but the coaches (have no supervisor) and know nothing about the game, were doing nothing, and I had a progressivly angry team of 16-17 and 18yr olds on my hands.
This is a bit of a babysitting league. Every team has 1-4 players who have actually played before thats about it. Skill level of probably 8-10 yr olds with crazy teenage attitudes.

One of the main differences in Canada to the US is the Sheer amount of people involved in the games that have never played or have any real clue as to the game of baseball. So as umpires we have a slight Teaching aspect to our roles when doing those types of games. We have some real good ball, and in those Games I would not have done any of these things, as the Coaches would deal with it. This game was not one of those. One a side note, the looking for strikes was just as you guys talked about opening the zone a ball or a ball and a half, simply trying to get things going. It actually lead to more hits rather than more outs in this case. But at least the game was moving rather than walk after walk.

However, My question also Asked for Suggestions to help me for next time. And sorry allowing a brawl to occur when there is some thing I could do to stop it is still not tops on my list.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

I don't completely disagree with you guys. In fact 99% of me completely agrees. That is why I posted. However, the problem in this league is hot heads and ejections and fights. The schools involved are notorious for having major issues, I was looking at this as a Game management issue Re Making sure no Fights or bad blood, which was very likely, but tempers cooled after this play. .

I don't think calling a phantom interference and then lecturing one of the few kids that knows it wasn't interference is going to calm the natives.
I think a bad call and a lecture from the umpire would generally fuel the fire.
you may have gotten lucky this time.

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

The finishing the game aspect was more a before they brawlled, not a get out of a bad game thing. It was 6 runs into that inning, I had no problem with them continuing to play, but wasn't about to have a brawl on my hands. .

How often does this team "brawl"? And what indication did you have that a brawl was about to break out if you didn't fabricate an out?
I most certainly understand your concerns, but I don't think lecturing players and coaches about sportsmanship while you're calling phantom outs is helping the situation.

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

In regards to the player, he was the best player on either team, had played for his provincial team for his age group, and to be honest should have known better. I agree I probably shouldn't have said anything, but the coaches (have no supervisor) and know nothing about the game, were doing nothing, and I had a progressivly angry team of 16-17 and 18yr olds on my hands.
This is a bit of a babysitting league. .

IMO umpires are never babysitters.
I never fault kids for playing hard. Maybe this kids family isn't flush with cash and he's fighting for a baseball scholarship. Any chance he has to make his stats look better he's going to take it. Now you just made a big change in his SB/SB ATT %. A booted call is one thing, a made up call is totally different.

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

One of the main differences in Canada to the US is the Sheer amount of people involved in the games that have never played or have any real clue as to the game of baseball. So as umpires we have a slight Teaching aspect to our roles when doing those types of games. .

Their still 16-18 yr old young men and deserve to be treated as such.
Does your association condone your self proclaimed job description of umpire/teacher?

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

However, My question also Asked for Suggestions to help me for next time. And sorry allowing a brawl to occur when there is some thing I could do to stop it is still not tops on my list.

You said the losing teams kids were getting progressivly more angry. How do you know? What were the outward manifestations of this anger? Maybe you were just projecting this anger to them since you were getting progressively more angry yourself.
You can't stop someone from being angry, you can only hope to keep them from illegally acting on that anger and you shouldn't do that by appeasing them with bad calls in their favor. Pavlov might say this may encourage their anger.
If any players are acting in an unsportsmanlike manner you should deal with it appropriately, but there is nothing in the rules that prevent a player from being mad, angry, pi$$ed off or upset with the other team.

Originally Posted by mcrowder

I have "stretched" things in a manner like you describe exactly twice. Both similar... the most recent - one team was just KILLING the other and the bad team just couldn't throw strikes at all. 30-something to 2 or 3. The coach, for about 6 batters, was chiding his players if they didn't swing at anything close (meaning head-high and 6 inches outside). After about 6 batters he calls time and comes to me - tells me just to call anything within reach a strike, just to get his kids to swing. And even with "permission", it took me another 4-5 batters before I really did what he asked, and it felt wrong to do it.

I had a similar situation last year - Frosh B game - first my assignor says -frosh B - big strike zone, then when I get to game, coaches kind of reiterate the same saying if not we'll be here until 8:00. It wasn't a blowout game, something like 8-6, but I had one pitch that I called a ball, and the opne coach says -"hey this isn't varsity". The problem is if you expand to meet what they want, they will complain you didn't expand enough or too much

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Are you saying you wait while a dugout person chases down a foul ball that's against the fence down the line?

The post said "spectator", not "dugout person." I don't allow play with a spectator in liveball territory, but that's just me.