Bases Loaded Walk...

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mightymoose_22

No... the runner MUST touch home. The question is when his protection ends when forced on a walk. Since he is not advancing toward the next base (because there isn't one) it seems he should still be protected. Should he not touch home and enter the dugout, then the defense can put him out on appeal. As I am seeing it, protection ends when you progress toward the next base, and in this case he would still be protected after passing home since there is not another base.

Here is the exact wording from my 2007 little league rule book... a note to rule 7.04:
"When a runner is entitled to a base without liability to be put out, while the ball is in play, or under any rule which the ball is in play after the runner reaches an entitled base, and the runner fails to touch the base to which that runner is entitled BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO ADVANCE TO THE NEXT BASE, the runner shall forfeit the exemption from liability to be put out and may be put out by tagging the base or by tagging the runner before that runner returns to the missed base."

MY whole point is... if there was no attempt to advance to the next base (because there isn't one), he can't be put out. The defense in this case would have to wait a moment and then appeal once the player is in the dugout.

The difference with a BR advancing to first on a walk is that he CAN advance toward the next base and lose that protection.

Read the casebook (The Richt Call) comment for 7.04.

Read 7.08(k)

Learn how the rules work.

[griff901c]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Mental masturbation with a loose grip.

Well said....pretty well sums it up....

I believe a dose of common sense in this situation is called for. Don't make it any harder than it is.

griff

[mightymoose_22]

Originally Posted by umpduck11

What if the defensive coach asked for "time" to visit with his F1, and it is
granted , before the runner has an opportunity to correct his mistake ?

Well since it was a live ball the ump should not grant time until all runners have reached their base and play has ended. At which point the appeal is still an option.

[mightymoose_22]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Read the casebook (The Richt Call) comment for 7.04.

Read 7.08(k)

Learn how the rules work.

7.08 would not apply since the runner advances home without liability to be put out.

The whole matter hinges on the question of whether protection ends after passing home or not... and since there is no base to advance to beyond home, it would seem that the runner is allowed to return and tag without liability as well.

Between this and a couple other forums I have posted the question in, it seems people are fairly evenly split. There does not seem to be a rule that clearly addresses the issue and is open to the interpretation of the umpire.

I have Hunter Wendelstadt's email... thinking I might give him a try :P

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mightymoose_22

7.08 would not apply since the runner advances home without liability to be put out.

The whole matter hinges on the question of whether protection ends after passing home or not... and since there is no base to advance to beyond home, it would seem that the runner is allowed to return and tag without liability as well.

Between this and a couple other forums I have posted the question in, it seems people are fairly evenly split. There does not seem to be a rule that clearly addresses the issue and is open to the interpretation of the umpire.

I have Hunter Wendelstadt's email... thinking I might give him a try :P

7.08k certainly does apply here. Just because a runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out, he must still touch the base to which he is awarded.

If he makes no attempt to return to touch home, the catcher can just stand on the plate with the ball and appeal to the umpire, and that runner is OUT!

If he does attempt to return (he must do so before reaching DBT), then he must be tagged.

7.05 Casebook comments:

"The fact a runner is awarded a bases or bases without liability to be put out does not relieve him of the responsibility to touch the base he is awarded and any intervening bases."

I don't think this forum is split on this issue at all. It seems that everyone who has responded to your question has the runner out. You are the only holdout for safe. I find it hard to believe that there is any split on the other forums concerning this issue either. You can't seriously allow a runner to miss a base on the basis of a loophole in the wording of a rule.

Are you really just Joe West in disguise?

[thumpferee]

I believe I read this once or twice somewhere.

If the runner does not return immediately, he is liable to be put out on appeal. If the runner makes an attempt to return, he must be tagged out. If the ball becomes dead, the runner cannot return and is liable to be put out upon proper appeal.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

You are comparing apples to oranges. I would say this would be more of a case of abandonment than a missed base. So you're saying if a runner walked around to the left hand batters box to pick up a bat before he touched home, they have missed the plate. If the catcher just happened to have the ball he could tag the runner and be out. If the runner ran five feet from home, picked up the bat and ran towards the dugout, he hasn't missed the base. He has abandoned. You're saying he can't correct himself before he goes into the dugout and touch the plate without being tagged. So where is the loophole you're talking about?

Just posting this shows your lack of understanding about basic rules. My post was entirely correct. I was not speaking about apples or oranges or any other fruit. The runner passed the plate without touching it. That is not abandonment, it's a missed base. Pull your head out.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mightymoose_22

7.08 would not apply since the runner advances home without liability to be put out.

The whole matter hinges on the question of whether protection ends after passing home or not... and since there is no base to advance to beyond home, it would seem that the runner is allowed to return and tag without liability as well.

Between this and a couple other forums I have posted the question in, it seems people are fairly evenly split. There does not seem to be a rule that clearly addresses the issue and is open to the interpretation of the umpire.

I have Hunter Wendelstadt's email... thinking I might give him a try :P

Between this and a couple other forums I have posted the question in, it seems people are fairly evenly split.

Their URLs please.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by mightymoose_22

Between this and a couple other forums I have posted the question in, it seems people are fairly evenly split.

I need a good laugh...where are these boards?

[LMan]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I need a good laugh...where are these boards?

It's the one(s) Hunter Wendlestedt frequents, as well

[johnnyg08]

it's an appeal play..he's supposed to touch home, the ball is live, he doesn't touch home...they appeal in FED, he's out...unless he can go touch home plate without being tagged or an appeal at home plate.
what if offense calls and is granted time defore the defense has the option to appeal...what happens here? FED and OBR?? sorry guys, no rule books here at the office today...

[LMan]

FED allows dead-ball appeals.

[johnnyg08]

I understand the dead ball rule LMan...thank you...so basically this wouldn't change anything...when "Time" is asked for and granted...the player could still walk up and touch the plate and the defense could still appeal. I get it...but it seems like a heck of a lot of stuff going on while "time" is called...do you see what I'm asking or am I being unclear? Fortunately this has a slim chance of happening, but I want to get it right if/when it ever comes up...

[RPatrino]

I'm continually amazed at how we can continue to debate something thats really pretty cut and dried. 7.08 does definitely apply, please confirm with Hunter.

[chuckfan1]

Happenned to me couple years back, same sitch you explained here. I posted the play on here. Got some interesting responses.
My R3 was jogging into home plate, and maybe he hadnt been there in awhile, as he missed home by about 6 inches or so, and kept right on going to the 1st base dugout, getting high fives from his equally ignorant teammates.
Course def mgr and F2 noticed this, and yelled to F1 for the ball. F2 got it, stepped on home, and I called him out. ONLY after that the defense was calling for the ball, did R3 turn around and try to get back to home.
Off mgr said that his runner needed to be tagged. Told him not in this case.
To me, since R3 was not trying to touch home, and was making no attempt to come back and touch, and didnt until prompted by the actions of the defense, I saw this as an appeal play. That seemed to be the overwhelming opinion also, of those I asked locally here, and by others on this board.
The reason for others saying it had to be a tag, was whether the action was still "hot" or not. Relaxed vs unrelaxed. Guess for that play, its ones own opinion of hot or not.
For me, when during a game (in a non timeout sitch) are things more relaxed than during a walk? What happens on a walk, usually? Pitcher gets the ball back, walks around the mound, looking around, maybe wondering how plate guy missed the pitch. Other fielders are coming out of their "ready" stances putting their hands on their hips, or looking up in the stands. Any runners are slowly (sometimes walking) to the next base. When is it more "relaxed". Basically everyone is in casual mode.
So for me....R3 has given up on the play. I had an out.
On this forum, the most vocal (of course) was the esteemed Tim C. He was on the side of the action still being hot. Needing a tag.
For me there is a difference.. runner coming into home on a hit...slides, misses home...F2 misses tag. Then the obligatory scramble for the plate. Yes, that of course requires a tag. But on the runner being forced home, and blows right by home.....tag of the plate is all I required.