Arguing balls and strikes

[spots101]

Originally Posted by Tim C

I have not gone to the mound to break up a conference in 10 years or more.

This is just nothing more than a bait and hook. Give just part of the facts and wait for people to respond and THEN tell the rest of the story.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

You challenge me in PM and say I'm on the clock for getting back to you, call me a name because you don't know what to do when challenged but degrade,

FYI. did this to me on another forum. He said he would never work with this new umpire because that umpire made a rookie mistake. All's he was doing was asking for advice and then Big Timmy C comes along and berates him. I called him on it saying that he should give the kid some slack and that we all make mistakes even as veterans.....well, except one. He had the cojones to pm me and say that I'm on his "list", (whatever the hell that's suppose to mean). He also told me to get a few years under my belt before I shoot my mouth off. It's real easy to act tough behind a computer.

So Tim, should I expect another one of your threatening pm's........

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by mbyron

How about 10-1-4: "Any umpire's decision which involves judgment, such as whether a hit is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final" (my emphasis).

What else would "final" mean in this context, Luke?

As we all know, final does not mean that the manager is not allowed on the field to argue the call. That exact sentence is in the OBR, but everyone who has ever seen a game on TV knows that by practice/tradition it is not enforced that way. Unlike other sports, in baseball the manager is allowed to stop the game to argue a judgement call with an official, that is just the way it goes.

[Tim C]

Luke, while it is true that I only have the last 15 years of Test Part 1 and 2 none of them have the question that you are discussing: could you tell me where to find it so I can change my statewide training manual.

Tuss, I did not send you a profane PM.

Chris, there are probably 30 other umpires in my area that don't break up mound conferences. You simply called me a liar and since I have known you on the internet for so long I was surprised.

Gee, sports101 how I have missed you . . . can't you do better than this. And as always I'll,leave my computer and meet you face-to-face grafftti artist as you are.

I will continue working my games in my way . . . as expected in my area . . . as worked by umpires in this area.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Luke, while it is true that I only have the last 15 years of Test Part 1 and 2 none of them have the question that you are discussing: could you tell me where to find it so I can change my statewide training manual.

It is question #60 from the 1993 Part II exam. Also I never said these types of actions should be allowed, I was just wondering if anyone actually did anything different in their Federatin games than in their NCAA/OBR games.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by LDUB

As we all know, final does not mean that the manager is not allowed on the field to argue the call. That exact sentence is in the OBR, but everyone who has ever seen a game on TV knows that by practice/tradition it is not enforced that way. Unlike other sports, in baseball the manager is allowed to stop the game to argue a judgement call with an official, that is just the way it goes.

LDUB:

Do you really allow coaches to argue balls/strikes with you? If you do I'd love to see one of your games, I hope that they are on time limits. Where do you umpire?

Arguing balls/strikes is not allowed in any level of baseball. The word ‘final” in the FED means that arguing judgment calls is not allowed. I’ve never been to a clinic that teaches otherwise, have you?

All you have to do is provide me with the reference in the rule book (any rule book) stating that a coach can come out of the dugout and argue strikes/balls with the PU. I'd love to see it because according to you I've been doing things incorrectly for many years.

If a coach or player starts to argue balls/strikes with me I'll stop him short with a warning......if he does it again then he's gone, it's that simple. You don’t argue balls/strikes…….at least not more than once

[Tim C]

I agree with Just Me . . . I feel you have mis-interpreturpted a question I opined the reverse . . . and was deemed correct . . . me thinks you need to review your position. . . I just looked at your referenced test and don't find that question . . . I am probably wrong but which question # was it . . . #60 does not fit

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Justme

Arguing balls/strikes is not allowed in any level of baseball.

That is the point of my question. The NF does not prohibit arguing balls and strikes like the other rule codes do, coming out to argue about a pitch is the same as coming out to argue about a tag play at second base. I was wondering if anyone allows more arguing in Federation games than in an OBR/NCAA game because of the way the rule is written.

Originally Posted by Justme

The word ‘final” in the FED means that arguing judgment calls is not allowed.

That may be what it means, but that is not how it is enforced. The manager/head coach is allowed on to the field to argue a judgement call and hold up the game for a reasonable ammount of time.

Originally Posted by Justme

All you have to do is provide me with the reference in the rule book (any rule book) stating that a coach can come out of the dugout and argue strikes/balls with the PU.

Unlike the OBR and NCAA rules there is no wording in the NF book which specifically prohibits arguing balls and strikes.

NCAA - After a warning, any player or coach who continues to argue balls, strikes, or checked swings, shall be ejected from the game.

OBR - Players leaving their position in the field or on base, or managers or coaches leaving the bench or coaches box, to argue on BALLS AND STRIKES will not be permitted. They should be warned if they start for the plate to protest the call. If they continue, they will be ejected from the game.

Federation - Nothing about the topic

I really do not understand why you are arguing with me, all I did was state a fact that the NF rule book does not specifically prohibit the arguing of balls and strikes and then asked a question how people handel the arguing of balls and strikes in games played under different rule codes.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Tim C

I agree with Just Me . . . I feel you have mis-interpreturpted a question I opined the reverse . . . and was deemed correct . . . me thinks you need to review your position. . . I just looked at your referenced test and don't find that question . . . I am probably wrong but which question # was it . . . #60 does not fit

It is in the BRD as 1993 Part II #60. It may be wrong, I don't know, but you will have to take it up with Carl.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by LDUB

That is the point of my question. The NF does not prohibit arguing balls and strikes like the other rule codes do, coming out to argue about a pitch is the same as coming out to argue about a tag play at second base. I was wondering if anyone allows more arguing in Federation games than in an OBR/NCAA game because of the way the rule is written.

That may be what it means, but that is not how it is enforced. The manager/head coach is allowed on to the field to argue a judgement call and hold up the game for a reasonable ammount of time.

Actually FED rules do prohibit arguing balls/strikes but you don't seem to understand that...that's okay.

There is a difference, IMO, between a manager/coach arguing balls/strikes and questioning a tag at second. An example: Thursday night I was the BU working 2-man in an Adult League game. Possible double play situation but the throw was bad and caused F4 to be pulled off 2B. F4 and R1 made contact but R1 made it safely to 2B. The defensive manager "asked" for time and came out to talk with me about the play.

Coach to me: "Al I know he was off the bag, but he tagged him"
Me to coach: "No coach, he ran into him but there was no tag. I was in perfect position on the play and saw it all the way."
Coach to me: "Okay Al, thanks"

I'll admit that not all conversations with coaches go this smoothly but I have a reputation for busting my butt to get into position and making good calls (now patting myself on the back ). Also I've worked dozens of games for this coach so he knows that if I weren't 100% sure I would go for help.

Bottom line: I'll talk with a coach occasionally on close plays. Sometimes a coach has to come out and question a call. There are times when he wants to hear your explanation for making a call. Some umpires may not allow this but I do. What I will not allow is a coach to come out to the plate and question my strike zone.

[mbyron]

I believe that Luke's point was about the rules, not their enforcement.

If the point is simply that FED does not have the same words as 9.02, then I agree. As I read 10-1-4, however, it prohibits arguing judgment calls.

We might allow coaches to come out on a close play at 2B to inquire whether we saw everything, but once we say the magic words, "In my judgment..." the conversation is over. If the coach stays now he risks violating the 3 P's and an ejection. Why? Because judgment calls are final.

In other words, we don't allow coaches to come out to question our judgment, we allow them to come out to discuss whether we saw everything that happened (which should inform our judgment).

We never allow that for ball/strike calls because (we assume) the PU always sees the pitch. But the principle is the same: judgment calls are final.

[PeteBooth]

I was just curious how some of you handle the mound conference in regard to balls/strikes. Do you let the manager say something there that he could not say elsewhere? Or is arguing b/s the same here, there, and everywhere?
Thanks for any and all responses.[/QUOTE]

First, as with most of these type posts I do not believe your question was answered except by TEE and a few others.

You asked a specific question and the thread turned in a different direction which has been a major problem with this Forum and regretably so.

The answer is as TEE points out:

Whatever is the accepted practice in one's association. Forget about OBR/NCAA and FED. The answer lies in the association one works for. TEE gave you what works in his, however, that doesn't work in mine because I know of some coaches who would have breakfast and lunch if you didn't go out to break up the conference.

As far as arguing balls / strikes after breaking up the conference, it depends. If it was just a simple displeaure etc. I probably would let it go, however, if the coach specifically blamed me becasue F1 was losing his control or had a derogatory tone, he would continue on to the patking lot.

Today is VERY different from when I played and IMO for the worse. When I played we used to actually talk to one another (what a concept). Tell the next hitter where the umpire was calling them today and also if F1 had REAL heat or a mean hook that day.

Today you could call the same pitch all game long and for some strange reason , the hitters / coaches think you are suddenly going to change and conform to them.

The game has changed a lot. Also, you cannot compare the Professional game to the amateur game. Umpires especially in the World Series give players / managers much leeway. The amateur game is different.

To sum up: What is the accepted practice in your area. The most important point is to be consistent in your approach.

Pete Booth

[Carbide Keyman]

Originally Posted by LDUB

That may be what it means, but that is not how it is enforced. The manager/head coach is allowed on to the field to argue a judgement call and hold up the game for a reasonable ammount of time.

I am extremely fortunate I do not work under FEDlandia constraints.



FWIW, I don't recall the last time I went to the mound to break up a "conference".

As has been previously stated, you work under the rules of your association and the conference or league that is paying you.

If you don't like said restrictions, don't work for those people.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Justme

Actually FED rules do prohibit arguing balls/strikes but you don't seem to understand that...that's okay.

There is a difference, IMO, between a manager/coach arguing balls/strikes and questioning a tag at second. An example: Thursday night I was the BU working 2-man in an Adult League game. Possible double play situation but the throw was bad and caused F4 to be pulled off 2B. F4 and R1 made contact but R1 made it safely to 2B. The defensive manager "asked" for time and came out to talk with me about the play.

Coach to me: "Al I know he was off the bag, but he tagged him"
Me to coach: "No coach, he ran into him but there was no tag. I was in perfect position on the play and saw it all the way."
Coach to me: "Okay Al, thanks"

I'll admit that not all conversations with coaches go this smoothly but I have a reputation for busting my butt to get into position and making good calls (now patting myself on the back ). Also I've worked dozens of games for this coach so he knows that if I weren't 100% sure I would go for help.

Bottom line: I'll talk with a coach occasionally on close plays. Sometimes a coach has to come out and question a call. There are times when he wants to hear your explanation for making a call. Some umpires may not allow this but I do. What I will not allow is a coach to come out to the plate and question my strike zone.

Was this obstruction or interference?

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by SAump

Was this obstruction or interfernce?

Sounds like a train wreck to me.


Tim.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by SAump

Was this obstruction or interfernce?

Neither...just a train wreck.