Arguing balls and strikes

[pdxblue]

Originally Posted by Tim C

I am trying to tell you the way it is in my area.

That's all . . .

Sorry Tim, but I work just as high, and ever higher levels games in "this area" as you do. This is NOT the "way it is done in our area". It may be the way YOU do it, but is NOT the way that is being taught by the association, or the college associations.

I have been to my share of camps conducted by NCAA umpires, some of the PAC 10 umpires who have NEVER shared anything like what you are saying about Oregon State, or any other school in the Pac 10. I know all the guys doing non-conference games too, and none of them have EVERY shared anything like what you are saying.

I hope you don't plan to share that kind of rubbish again this coming season IF you are allowed to work in the training aspect in our association. Some of your ideas are WAY out of line with the rest of the umpiring community!

[pdxblue]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Chris, there are probably 30 other umpires in my area that don't break up mound conferences.

I will continue working my games in my way . . . as expected in my area . . . as worked by umpires in this area.

I want names of them Tim. Really, PM them to me. I certainly have worked with all the 'top' umpires in our association, and know for a fact that they all have broken up mound conferences. The games I have worked with you, indeed you haven't.

You work games in "your way" for sure, but you don't necessarily work them "as expected in my area".

I have also received PM's from you with crazy put downs and 'threats', so it doesn't surprise me to read that others have too! I keep wondering why you have such a hard time with people calling you on your crap.

At best Tim, you are an ok high school umpire. I think most of the time you don't get grief because EVERYBODY knows how long you have been around. I don't really think it is a reflection of how good you are, because there certainly IS grumbling. I think you definitely have an inflated opinion about how good you are!

[pdxblue]

Just to add my bucks worth.

I pay attention to who is coming out. If it is the pitching coach, I will give them a good 30-40 seconds to talk to their kid. I then purposely walk out to the mound and say something like "Okay guys, let's go". Pitching coaches don't argue balls and strikes. If they do (hasn't happened in years for me!) I would simply tell them to "can it coach". If they persisted, I would not hesitate to eject them. I will NOT allow an assistent coach to take pop shots at me concerning my calls. I don't care how "obvious" they are when they do it, I just don't allow it. It is not their job.

If the manager (okay, this is high school, Head Coach) comes out, and I know they have a pitching coach, he is most likely going to make a change. I get ready for that change, but I am not going out there for a bit. If he stalls for more than about 40 seconds, then I head out and simply ask once I get there "What are you going to do skip?". Usually, he is just stalling to allow his reliever to warm up some more. He usually calls him out when I get to the mound. I get a name/number and get out of there.

If the Head Coach starts to make comments about my calls/strike zone, I ask "Skip, are you out here to argue balls and strikes?". If he starts to argue them some more, I simply say "Conference is over, let's go". If he doesn't comply, he goes. I have only had this happen once in over 20 years!

In college games, I do it a bit different. If the Head Coach comes out, I head straight to the mound after he get's there. In college, the manager almost never comes out unless he is going to make a change. So, no use wasting any time. It is NOT a conference if he is changing pitchers eh?

Handling coaches who argue balls and strikes is a delicate thing. I think if you are a CONSISTENT umpire, you won't have much problems, but no matter how consistent you are, some coaches are going to be jerks some days, and you HAVE to deal with it. For the good of the game you MUST deal with it, and deal with it quickly.

I follow this:

1 - Seemingly ignore the first comment. Yes, I hear it and make a mental note of it, but I don't even give them the benefit of a look.

2 - On the second comment give them a "look". I MAKE SURE they know I heard them, and usually I have a bit of a scrowl on my face when I am looking. Believe it or not, 80% of the time, I hear nothing more from the coach after this!

3 - On the third comment. I call time (if need be), take off my mask, turn to the coach, stick my hand up with palm facing him and state in a voice that everybody in the county can hear "Coach, no more arguing balls and strikes. I have heard enough". Usually you get a bit of a chirp from them, and I follow that with "Coach, ENOUGH!!!". I put my mask back on and put the ball in play.

4 - If at any point after 3 the coach makes more comments about balls and strikes, I run him. It is VERY important that you do 3 correctly! EVERYBODY should know that you just warned the coach about arguing balls and strikes and that you will not take any more of that. If he makes another comment and you run him, nobody can say that you didn't warn him right?

The above is a VERY accepted proceedure for dealing with arguing balls and strikes.

If an assistent coach argues balls and strikes, I go straight to 3, then 4.

If I make it to step 2, and don't hear anything for a few innings, then hear another comment, I will probably repeat 2 again before going to 3. This prudent. The goal here is to shut the coach up. If 2 accomplishes that for a few innings, great, he earns "another chance" to change his evil ways! Once I get to 3 though, that is it. NO MORE MEANS NO MORE. If you give that warning, you HAVE to follow through with step 4! You have no other option and still retain integrity! If you get to step 3, then don't eject the coach the next time he argues a pitch, your credibility is shot! You will not get any respect. I don't feel sorry for you. You must not like baseball to allow this kind of behavior to continue in a game! If you get to 3 then don't follow with 4 the next time the coach argue a call, you should quit umpiring. You are simply bad for the game! You have set a precedent, and it is not a good one! You have made it difficult for the next umpire that has to deal with that jerk. You have made it difficult for the assignor to argue "You were warned coach" when he can come back and say "But the last guy warned me, but didn't throw me out the next time I did it!".

Again, if you are consistent with your strike zone, it doesn't matter if you call them in the dirt! If you are calling it for everybody in the dirt, the call was EVENLY called both ways, and nobody has a legitimate reason to argue any ball/strike call. They may still feel like you are a horse poop ump, but you were horse poop both ways! I have heard it time and time again from players, coaches, and fans. They just want consistency within THAT GAME! Yeah, at higher levels, it is expected that you are somewhat consistent with your peers who work games too. But, even at the college level, the coaches and players accept variations of how the strike zone it called, just as long as it is consistent!

Don't let a coach argue balls and strikes with you when you break up a mound conference. Don't argue with them. If they keep making comments, follow the above 4 steps. It will work wonderfully.

[Tim C]

This process as explained by pdxblue is nearly perfect.

It is almost exactly as trained at schools and clinics.

I think it is written very, very well and documents even the subtlties of dealing with a pitching coach rather than the head guy.

Obviously I am rethinking my position on this issue as it appears, as pointed out by pdxblue, I may have been dealing with incorrect information.

While pdxblue and I have our issues credit should be given when things are done well.

Regards,

[lawump]

As a professional umpire we were always, always drilled to "keep the game moving". As a result, we were taught that if you knew that a coach was coming out to the mound specifically to talk to YOU (as opposed to his pitcher), then we were not to wait to break up the conference. Rather, we were told to go to the mound and get it over with.

And in that situation I would:
(1) tell the manager "ok, let's go" (which would be immediately followed by comments about my strike zone).
(2) give the manager his warning about not arguing balls and strikes OR if his first comment was personal (for example, "your brutal today") I would eject.
(3) If the manager was only given a warning in step 2, then I would eject if he continued to argue without leaving the mound.

As for situations in which I did NOT think the manager came out solely to argue with me, but actually wanted to talk to their pitcher, I would handle breaking up a mound conference pretty much like pdxblue suggested...the only difference being that sometimes some managers did come out to only talk...and not only when they wanted the pitcher removed...so I wouldn't be quite as quick to go to the mound when the manager makes the trip.

As an aside, I have, fortunately, yet to have the situation where I thought the head coach was going out to the mound solely to talk to ME arise in any amateur game I've done since leaving the pro ranks.

I will also tell one war story of my most memorable conference at the mound. I will say, first, that I was having a "rough" day behind the plate (and I'm being generous). Anyways, the Red Sox affiliate's manager Dick Berandino came out for a conference at the mound...and I KNEW he was only coming out to have words with me.

So, when Berandino got there and started scraping dirt of the pitcher's plate without saying anything to his pitcher or catcher, I immediately started out to the mound by walking with deliberate speed.

Halfway to the mound, the Sox's pitching coach yells, from the dugout, "Blue, you're f***ing choking out there," while bringing his hands up to his throat. I stopped and immediately ejected him. He came sprinting out of the dugout, and I had no doubt he was going to run up and bump me...when Berandino, whom I believe is a former college football player at Holy Cross, grabbed his much younger and much bigger coach (who was sprinting) around his waist and stopped him. He yelled some more profanities and left.

Berandino just said, after the coach left, "you have to expect to take some when your missing pitches that much." I just said, "skip, I understand...but I ain't taking it from any assistant coach." He just left and we moved on.

[pdxblue]

Great post lawump. Thanks for pointing out the part about when they come out JUST to say something to you. You are right, get right on out there and deal with it.

I love telling assistant coaches to "can it". I love telling head coaches to can it when they are being jerks. Doesn't happen too often, but, it happens no matter how good you call games. I do know that I am NOT out there to take their pop shots and crap. I work hard at my job and don't give coaches grief about THEIR judgement calls! I expect the same respect!

[SAump]

Tossing somebody out for arguing BS balls and strikes sends a message alright. If you don't wanna hear it, stay home. You really don't belong there. I wouldn't even bother to write an ejection report. I would just pack it in. I can imagine the smiles from a committee when they hear that coach A was tossed for arguing balls and strikes with YOU. I agree with Tee's statements about ejections. Throw the wrong guy out and you'll be looking for a new line of work. Careers are shortened and you will be scratched. Let's not fuss over details. Let the coach exchange words and remember those 3 P's before any ejection. Brutal wasn't one them.

Some people only understand winning and what's fair doesn't begin to enter the picture. Every call against one team is a bad call. You come to expect comments from one side or the other at a critical juncture. Coaches feel they have to say something to defend a player or to motivate the team. A real coach isn't afraid to step out and state his case or ask for an explanation after his team has been slighted. He doesn't go out there to say the ump has been doing a good job all day.

[pdxblue]

Originally Posted by SAump

Tossing somebody out for arguing BS balls and strikes sends a message alright. If you don't wanna hear it, stay home. You really don't belong there. I wouldn't even bother to write an ejection report. I would just pack it in. I can imagine the smiles from a committee when they hear that coach A was tossed for arguing balls and strikes with YOU. I agree with Tee's statements about ejections. Throw the wrong guy out and you'll be looking for a new line of work. Careers are shortened and you will be scratched. Let's not fuss over details. Let the coach exchange words and remember those 3 P's before any ejection. Brutal wasn't one them.

Some people only understand winning and what's fair doesn't begin to enter the picture. Every call against one team is a bad call. You come to expect comments from one side or the other at a critical juncture. Coaches feel they have to say something to defend a player or to motivate the team. A real coach isn't afraid to step out and state his case or ask for an explanation after his team has been slighted. He doesn't go out there to say the ump has been doing a good job all day.

Well, you are welcome to work like this. But, that is definitely the "old school" thinking about arguing balls/strikes. It is the kind of thinking that in my opinion brings about a lot of displays of poor sportsmanship and escalation of problems on and off the field.

I ejected when I need to. These ejections don't hurt my "career". There is no such thing as "throwing out the wrong guy out" unless you got the wrong coach from the bench.

Hey, if a coach wants to come out and talk to me face to face, in normal conversational tones, he can say almost anything to me. But when they bark it from the dugout, I have little tolerance! I don't HAVE to have much tolerance either! No assignor in the last several years has been mad because I tossed a coach for arguing balls/strikes after following the procedures described above. They usually applaud that I DID eject them and make comments like "Good, sounds like he deserved it".

A coach has ONE job during a came, to instruct his players. His job is NOT to argue calls I make.

All that aside, I just don't like a coach being in my head like that.

[Tim C]

SAump wrote:

". . . I agree with Tee's statements . . . "

Does anyone have a gun?

Regards,

[MD Longhorn]

I fail to understand why coaches feel it's necessary to argue ANY calls. What do they expect will happen? "Oh, yes, sir - you're right, he was safe ... don't know what I was thinking... bring your guy back out here." The arguments serve absolutely no purpose, and only antagonize the umpire and waste time. I can understand calm discussions when a rule might be misinterpreted, or even, "How did he balk, Blue?" But the arguments are nonsense.

[pdxblue]

Uhhhhhh...I think we are talking about "the fine line" here.

I know with this new "getting the call right" era, a lot of coaches are asking umpires to "ask for help" in ANY situation where they don't agree with the call! LOL Maybe that is why they are arguing balls/strikes still. Maybe you will ask your partner for an opinion about the zone too!

But I agree, what point does it serve.

Really though, I get far more riled up about the UMPIRE who will not deal with a coach who is barking from the dugout/coaching box about calls than I get about the coach. It seems like some guys are afraid to deal with it! It just deteriorates the game to a point where it is no fun for the fans, players, and me!

Usually when I shut a coach up, some of his own players thank me! Really, I would say it happens at least 50% of the time!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

Every thread on the board gets more heated and out of hand than any argument I ever encounter on the ball field. Makes me wonder how some of those guys get through a game without a blood vessel bursting in their forehead. I can't hear what they are saying most of the time anyway unless they get really loud and obnoxious. Then I take care of it very nicely.

Please explain just how you take care of it very nicely.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

Steve,

It doesn't matter what answer I give you, it is never good enough or is not the correct way (the San Diego way) to handle it. I explained each situation is unique. I'm merely stating the fact that a consistent strike zone is usually what a coach can live with. I didn't suggest that every pitch was a strike. Just call the same pitch in the same location a strike. Berate me as much as you want. I get compliments on my consistent strike which is a good zone very often. I just take it for what is it worth. It doesn't mean that I'm better than the next umpire. I get the hard line complaining very seldom. When I do, I shut it down nicely and calmly. It's worked every time that I can remember. I do not give repeated warnings. That is the fallacy that you and Tim like to portray to other posters. Working FED games the majority of the time, the coaches hold themselves to a higher degree of conduct. Thus, I encounter less of these problems to begin with. Simply put what works for me might not work for the person that gets upset with criticism as easily as you seem to do. If you feel the need to be large and in charge, be my guest. I just handle the situation differently without all the yelling. I don't yell on the ballfield. Never did and never will.

Ummmm Hmmmmm........

Originally Posted by PWL

I never pay the least slight attention to coaches yelling from the dugout or from the coaching boxes In fact, I have never had an ejection. I know that they can get emotional, and I give them a few seconds to calm down. Of course, I haven't had one go over the edge verbally. There were a few I could have ejected for their actions.

In fact, I've done this a few times to bench jockeys when I feel they have crossed the line.

I call time. Walk over to the dugout. I say calmly, "It ends right now or I'm going to eject the person I think is responsible. You might want to want to get somebody ready in the bullpen". Not that I would do that of course, but it really quites them down a lot.

Another method I have used when I have a coach yelling from the dugout. I stop, take off my mask, step in front of home plate, and tell the coach, "You'll have to yell a lot louder please, I'm hard of hearing, and I don't read lips." Then I brush the plate with my rear end facing their dugout. It let's them know they won't be getting anywhere with that today.

Anyway, I'm in my happy place when I'm on a ballfield. I refuse to let somebody ruin it for me and everybody else out there. There will probably be alot of people out there that don't agree with me. However, I haven't had any complaints that I know of. The coaches that know me best, know that at least they have an umpire out there that will hustle, and is not too vain to try to get the call right.

Tim.

[Jurassic Referee]

Aw geeze, another episode of Global Moderators Gone Bad.

[SAump]

Every ump here has been asked to call it both ways.
Not one (I am crossing my fingers here) has ever been asked to change a ball/strike call.
Most is innocent chatter you hear from game to game.
Coaches also approach umps and make comments between innings to/from dugout.
Short unsolicited suggestions for improvement come from both teams.
I believe most of them say the same things throughout the season.
The good teams find a way to win and go home happy.
The bad teams find a way to lose and blame the ump.
None of it is profane, prolonged, or personal.