One from the mound?

[greymule]

Yankees-Tigers bottom 6th. Abreu on 1B, pitcher steps off the pitchers's plate and throws to 1B, and the ball goes off F3's glove and into the stands.

Abreu given 2B only.

Huh??

[SanDiegoSteve]

He was on the rubber. I payed close attention on the replay. They got it right.

[greymule]

He was on the rubber.

Sure didn't look like it to me. But maybe it's a matter of interpretation. He was on the rubber when he started to throw—in other words, he did not step back and throw—but I think his foot was off when he released the ball. I guess that qualifies as throwing from the ruibber.

[mbyron]

He made a standard jump step, which is legal and counts as throwing from the rubber.

[greymule]

Good thing I turned down the offer to ump that game.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by greymule

Good thing I turned down the offer to ump that game.

Oh, I dunno, you might have done better than Angel, our forum's favorite whipping boy.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by mbyron

He made a standard jump step, which is legal and counts as throwing from the rubber.

The way I always think of this is that the pitcher is legally "in contact" unless he steps off as per "8.01 (e) If the pitcher removes his pivot foot from contact with the pitcher’s plate by stepping backward with that foot, he thereby becomes an infielder..."

In other words, this is the way the rules describe how a pitcher disengages. Any other move and he's still in contact.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

The way I always think of this is that the pitcher is legally "in contact" unless he steps off as per "8.01 (e) If the pitcher removes his pivot foot from contact with the pitcher’s plate by stepping backward with that foot, he thereby becomes an infielder..."

In other words, this is the way the rules describe how a pitcher disengages. Any other move and he's still in contact.

But then what's your call if he steps off with the free foot and throws it out of play? (OBR, naturally.) Was he in contact of not?

[sargee7]

Originally Posted by mbyron

But then what's your call if he steps off with the free foot and throws it out of play? (OBR, naturally.) Was he in contact of not?

If he hasn't stepped off with the pivot foot then he hasn't stepped off.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

The way I always think of this is that the pitcher is legally "in contact" unless he steps off as per "8.01 (e) If the pitcher removes his pivot foot from contact with the pitcher’s plate by stepping backward with that foot, he thereby becomes an infielder..."

In other words, this is the way the rules describe how a pitcher disengages. Any other move and he's still in contact.

Exactly. I find it easier to explain to coaches by using the term "disengage" instead of "stepping off". One can step off a number of ways, but there is only one way to "disengage".

[greymule]

So the fake to 3B and quick turn and throw to 1B is considered "on" (even if the foot is off) because the pitcher did not technically "disengage" by stepping off backward. (Or am I wrong?)

I'm surprised that in my 30+ years of umpiring, this never came up. I guess nobody did this move and then threw the ball into DBT.

I haven't done Fed in a long time. Is their rule different?

[Tim C]

Greymule:

I sometimes scratch my head as you seem to be:

Legally disengaging seems, to me, to be a moving target.

Through usage and tradition we have found that under OBR a pitcher that "fakes to third and then throws to first" is to have legally disengaged during the move although he does not step backwards off the pitcher's plate as noted in the rule.

We also know that, while possible, it is highly unlikely that a pitcher will actually fake to third and then turn and throw to first without disengaging sometime during the action.

A jump turn and jab step are considered clearly to be deemed "from the rubber" while, what appears to be an illegal disengagement, is condered not in contact.

With that,

Scratching my head,

Regards,

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by greymule

So the fake to 3B and quick turn and throw to 1B is considered "on" (even if the foot is off) because the pitcher did not technically "disengage" by stepping off backward. (Or am I wrong?)

I'm surprised that in my 30+ years of umpiring, this never came up. I guess nobody did this move and then threw the ball into DBT.

I haven't done Fed in a long time. Is their rule different?

No, we didn't explain this appropriately. I apologize.

My reference to disengage vs stepping off was to discussions with coaches about moves directly to first.

In OBR the 3-1 move you are referring to must include separation from the rubber. This is why the pitcher may, and most often does, fake the throw to first.