balk

[PWL]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call "Time" the moment the catcher catches the ball. Then enforce the balk. (Note exception in ball four situations covered in item (5) below.

(5)If the balk is followed by ball four delivered to the batter and is caught by the catcher, call "Time" and enforce the balk unless all runners advance one base because of ball four. In that situation, play proceeds without reference to the balk.

Notice the exception. You do not call time on ball four when runners are forced due to the batter becoming a runner. To do so would be playing the 10th man on defense should a runner attempt to advance beyond the base to which he was forced. Do you call time every time the catcher wants to throw the ball back to the pitcher? I'm not arguing with you. I'm merely pointing our you're wrong in your interpretation, again.


Tim.

If you will read it says call "Time". It doesn't say not call "Time" in certain situations. Isn't that like your interpretation of the jump turn, "But it doesn't say that in so many words". It simply says disregard the balk if all runners advance due to the base on balls. If there were runners on first and third and the pitch was ball four, the pitch would not count. You would score runner from third and runner from first would move to second. Batter would stay at the plate. So would you not call "Time" in that situation? Would you be the 10th man? Again you don't get it. You are not depriving the defense of making a play, since they have committed an infraction.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

If you will read it says call "Time". It doesn't say not call "Time" in certain situations. Isn't that like your interpretation of the jump turn, "But it doesn't say that in so many words". It simply says disregard the balk if all runners advance due to the base on balls. If there were runners on first and third and the pitch was ball four, the pitch would not count. You would score runner from third and runner from first would move to second. Batter would stay at the plate. So would you not call "Time" in that situation? Would you be the 10th man? Again you don't get it. You are not depriving the defense of making a play, since they have committed an infraction. Perhaps you should go back to slow pitch softball where you don't have to concern your self with such technicalities.

No, it doesn't say not to call time. It also doesn't say to call time in many other situations. That doesn't mean that it's your perogative to call time at will for no justifiable reason. This discussion has centered around your assertion after Steve said the ball remains live with first base occupied, that the ball should in fact become dead on ball four when the pitcher balks. We weren't discussing runners on first and third to my knowledge, only a runner(s) who would be forced to advance by the batter becoming a runner on ball four. Therefore, your first and third analogy is seriously flawed as it relates to this discussion. When the interpretation says the play proceeds, it means just that. The ball must remain live allowing all play to continue until there is just cause for it to become dead.

Tim.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by PWL

If you will read it says call "Time". It doesn't say not call "Time" in certain situations. Isn't that like your interpretation of the jump turn, "But it doesn't say that in so many words". It simply says disregard the balk if all runners advance due to the base on balls. If there were runners on first and third and the pitch was ball four, the pitch would not count. You would score runner from third and runner from first would move to second. Batter would stay at the plate. So would you not call "Time" in that situation? Would you be the 10th man? Again you don't get it. You are not depriving the defense of making a play, since they have committed an infraction.

FWIW, I agree with Tim's reading of this rule. That is, if everyone (BR and all Rs) advances as a result of the play, keep the ball live. If anyone doesn't advance, then kill the ball.

If you want to argue the rule, please do so without getting personal. I removed a couple of "shots" from recent posts -- I hope I won't have to do so again. (And that paragraph is not directed only at PWL.)

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

If there were runners on first and third and the pitch was ball four, the pitch would not count. You would score runner from third and runner from first would move to second. Batter would stay at the plate.

My example said a runner on first. At no time did I say "first and third." I was only explaining that you don't kill the ball on ball four if all runners advance 1 base. In these situations on ball four, the ball remains alive: R1, R1 and R2, R1, R2, and R3. In any other case, the ball is dead as it states in the rules (8.05 Penalty).

Let's review:

8.05 Penalty The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.

Now, in conclusion:

1) the word "unless" means that everything written before it is not applicable in the exceptions that will follow.

2) a "base on balls" and "all other runners advance at least one base" are the items which are the exceptions that make everything prior to the word "unless" not applicable in this particualr situation.

3) because these exceptions were met, the "play proceeds without reference to the balk. This means that the play proceeds, which would be impossible to occur unless the ball remains alive, as is stated right there in 8.05 Penalty, by the very definition of the word "unless." The ball is dead unless.

I hope this has cleared it up for you.

[PWL]

FWIW, the ruling also includes HBP. Are going to keep the ball alive then. The play shall proceed unless. That is the problem I have with the ruling. If a ball is put in play, I can certainly agree with what it says. I just feel you are giving the defense the opportunity to make a play when they have erred. If I don't read it the way you read it, sorry.

[SanDiegoSteve]

PW,

On a HBP, the ball is always dead. Ball four usually has the ball alive when it's called. I'm not talking down to you, I'm telling you the proper way to rule on the play. Bob told you, Tim told you, now I'm telling you. But you still want to argue about it. The play proceeds. If it's a HBP, the play proceeds as normal, which is that the ball is dead. If it is a base on balls, the play proceeds as normal, which is the ball is alive.

What if the catcher saw the runner round 2nd base hard, threw there, but threw the ball away into center, and thus allowed a run to score on the error. If you kill the ball when the catcher catches it, you have now deprived the offense to take advantage of the defense's mistake.

It isn't that you don't read it the way I do, it's that whenever advice is given to you, instead of just saying, "thank you for explaining it to me," you always take offense and think somebody is out to get you. I explained the reason that the ball is not dead as clearly as I can. You continue to argue after being told by several people that you are wrong.

You aren't just wrong a little bit, like because of the way something is worded doesn't match. You are wrong because you have a wrong concept of the proper ruling.

I sure hope my post doesn't need editing just for pointing out that you are wrong in this case. There is nothing personal meant in any way by my pointing this out.

[BigUmp56]

The exception does not include a HBP because obviously a HBP is an immediate dead ball. It's right there in black and white on your computer screen. I don't understand how you can possibly be reading it any other way. I'm not sure how you can be giving the defense the opportunity to make a play. It's an award, and a base on balls in OBR is a live ball award. I would think that what you're doing by killing the ball is depriving the offense an opportunity to attempt to advance.



Tim.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

Just so everyone knows, I think I'm leaning towards Bob's thinking here.
I stand corrected with regards to the proper ruling under NCAA rules... thanks BOB.

For the record.... I wrote this. I like when I can get a better understanding of the rules which sometimes means I eat crow...

[PWL]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

PW,

On a HBP, the ball is always dead. Ball four usually has the ball alive when it's called. I'm not talking down to you, I'm telling you the proper way to rule on the play. Bob told you, Tim told you, now I'm telling you. But you still want to argue about it. The play proceeds. If it's a HBP, the play proceeds as normal, which is that the ball is dead. If it is a base on balls, the play proceeds as normal, which is the ball is alive.

What if the catcher saw the runner round 2nd base hard, threw there, but threw the ball away into center, and thus allowed a run to score on the error. If you kill the ball when the catcher catches it, you have now deprived the offense to take advantage of the defense's mistake.

It isn't that you don't read it the way I do, it's that whenever advice is given to you, instead of just saying, "thank you for explaining it to me," you always take offense and think somebody is out to get you. I explained the reason that the ball is not dead as clearly as I can. You continue to argue after being told by several people that you are wrong.

You aren't just wrong a little bit, like because of the way something is worded doesn't match. You are wrong because you have a wrong concept of the proper ruling.

I sure hope my post doesn't need editing just for pointing out that you are wrong in this case. There is nothing personal meant in any way by my pointing this out.

What if the count is 3-1 and a lefthander steps more towards first than he does home? This causes the runner to feint back to first, but the hit and run is on so he takes off for second. Because of the balk the runner gets a bad jump and tries to avoid the tag and inadvertently slides past second. Now the runner has technically gone past his award base. But lo and behold, the ball is still live. So now you have actually rewarded the defense for the balk if the pitch was ball four.

I take the rule to read that you leave the ball live because the penalty is more severe to the defense. This way the pitch counts and is the offense is rewarded by having the batter reach base. I still can go back and read post #11 that is from the MLBUM and it says to call "Time" on a ball four. It only says to let the play proceed in my opinion so the pitch will count and the batter is awarded first base. A more severe penalty. It also says call "Time" after all action has ceased on a batted ball. Just make sure all runners and batter have advanced one base.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

What if the count is 3-1 and a lefthander steps more towards first than he does home? This causes the runner to feint back to first, but the hit and run is on so he takes off for second. Because of the balk the runner gets a bad jump and tries to avoid the tag and inadvertently slides past second. Now the runner has technically gone past his award base. But lo and behold, the ball is still live. So now you have actually rewarded the defense for the balk if the pitch was ball four.

I take the rule to read that you leave the ball live because the penalty is more severe to the defense. This way the pitch counts and is the offense is rewarded by having the batter reach base. I still can go back and read post #11 that is from the MLBUM and it says to call "Time" on a ball four. It only says to let the play proceed in my opinion so the pitch will count and the batter is awarded first base. A more severe penalty. It also says call "Time" after all action has ceased on a batted ball. Just make sure all runners and batter have advanced one base.

Here is what the MLBUM actually says about this exact scenario of ball four/live ball on balk:

When a balk is made on a pitch that is a fourth ball it shall be ruled the same as when the batter hits a balk pitch and is safe on a hit or error, provided all runners advance at least one base on the play. Therefore, with a runner on first, first and second, or first, second and third, when a balk is called on the fourth ball, the batter goes to first base and all runners advance at least one base. If they attempt to advance more than one base, they do so at their own risk.

Also:

(3) If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call "Time" the moment the catcher catches the ball. Then enforce the balk. (Note exception in ball four situations covered in item (5) below.)

(5) If the balk is followed by ball four delivered to the batter and is caught by the catcher, call "Time" and enforce the balk unless all runners advance one base because of ball four. In that situation, play proceeds without reference to the balk.

Didn't the runner notice or hear the umpire(s) screaming, "That's a balk" at the top of their lungs? Why would he try to avoid a tag when he knows he is awarded 2nd base on the balk? He should also realize that if he goes past his awarded base, he does so at his own risk.

We can "what if" this thing all you want, the MLBUM interpretation says very clearly to only call Time on ball four if the runners aren't forced to advance.

You are making it harder than it really is. No reference is made to the balk when it is ball four and the runners all advance one base as a result of the base on balls. You are to treat it exactly the same as if the ball was hit. If you call Time, you are making a reference to the balk, which the rule clearly says not to do.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by PWL

What if the count is 3-1 and a lefthander steps more towards first than he does home?

All of your questions have already been asked, answered, and quoted in this thread, from the MLB Umpire Manual and the NAPBL, now PBUC Manual, under the general heading "When to Call Time After A Balk."

Please, go back and read those citations. They aren't somebody's opinion, they aren't open to variable interpretation depending on how one reads them. They are very clear and very specific.

In a fight between you and the world, back the world.

[BigUmp56]

You can also look to the J/R for this.


Balk Penalization

Umpires are to voice and signal a balk (stating "that's a balk" and signaling by pointing at the source of the infraction with the arm straight out). A balk and dead ball are not synonymous; a balk does not necessarily result in a dead ball (so a balk should never be called by using the signal for "time").

1. If there is a balk followed by a pause in which a pitcher does not try to pitch or throw, the ball becomes dead (but only when an umpire signals such) and every runner is awarded his advance base.

2. If there is a balk followed immediately by a pitch (e.g., a pitcher fails to set before his pitch), then related action is allowed to occur, subject to the following:

3. If the batter becomes a runner on a batted ball or award and acquires first base and every runner acquires his advance base by reason of such batter becoming a runner, then the balk is disregarded.



Tim.

[left coast]

Originally Posted by PWL
What if the count is 3-1 and a lefthander steps more towards first than he does home?

Have you ever really seen this happen? If a pitcher does step enough toward first (for you to call it a balk) and then deliveres a pitch, he will either fall on his a$$ or throw the pitch straight into the ground....probably both.

Quit pulling plays out of your butt.

[PWL]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

All of your questions have already been asked, answered, and quoted in this thread, from the MLB Umpire Manual and the NAPBL, now PBUC Manual, under the general heading "When to Call Time After A Balk."

Please, go back and read those citations. They aren't somebody's opinion, they aren't open to variable interpretation depending on how one reads them. They are very clear and very specific.

In a fight between you and the world, back the world.

I wasn't trying to a have fight, I was trying to have a discussion. But I'll bet you dollars to donuts that when this does occur, that time will be called every time if the catcher catches the ball and no action is taking place in the situation being discussed. One because play will probably cease, and two it is just nature of the beast

[BigUmp56]

And I'll just say that now I hope you know better than to allow the nature of the beast to take over and leave the ball in play like you're supposed to.


Tim.