balk

[Dave Hensley]

Yep, dead when the catcher catches it. The MLBUM citation is pretty much word for word the original citation from the NAPBL (now PBUC) Manual. It is the definitive explanation on when to call time following a balk call. It's not simple, and it's not particularly intuitive, but it's in writing and it's official.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

It's dead when the catcher catches the baseball, as mentioned a few times higher in the thread.

Unless of course, it's ball four with first base occupied.

[mbyron]

The problem with allowing F2 to throw down is precisely that something like the OP might happen: ball gets away from whoever is covering 2B, and the runner heads down to 3B. Now you have to kill it and enforce the balk (since the batter did not reach 1B), which means sending that runner BACK to 2B.

So I agree: call time when F2 gloves the pitch.

Also an argument for really using your lungs to call balks...

[PWL]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Unless of course, it's ball four with first base occupied.

Why would the ball not be dead when the catcher catches the ball. All you simply is do ignore the balk since all runners advance.

[ggk]

thanks for all of the input.
PRO -
consensus says to kill the play when F2 catches the pitch.

is there anywhere i can get my hands on a copy of the MLB Umpire's Manual ?? thanks.

NCAA -
do all agree that play is allowed to continue b/c F2 is not in the infield (per ctblu 40's early post)?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

Why would the ball not be dead when the catcher catches the ball. All you simply is do ignore the balk since all runners advance.

Since when is the ball dead when you ignore a balk? If you are ignoring the balk since all runners advance on ball four, then the ball remains alive. What makes you think the ball is dead because of ball four???

[PWL]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Since when is the ball dead when you ignore a balk? If you are ignoring the balk since all runners advance on ball four, then the ball remains alive. What makes you think the ball is dead because of ball four???

Because the first four words in the penalty read THE BALL IS DEAD.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

Because the first four words in the penalty read THE BALL IS DEAD.

8.05 Penalty The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.


Tim.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ggk

thanks for all of the input.
NCAA -
do all agree that play is allowed to continue b/c F2 is not in the infield (per ctblu 40's early post)?

No. The NCAA rule is the same as OBR on this issue.

[ggk]

bob jenkins stated
No. The NCAA rule is the same as OBR on this issue.

but what about ctblu40's post..........

"NCAA rules are similar, but not the same. I would not call time and enforce the balk in this situation in an NCAA game because there are 2 criteria that need to be met.
First, 9-3-PENALTY(1) is the same as OBR in that if all runners including the batter advance 1 base, the balk is ignored (which is not the case in the play above).
Second, 9-3-PENALTY(2) indicates that "the umpire shall call balk in the usual manner, but shall not call "time" until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and/or a fielder is in posession of the ball in the infield)." In your discription, a fielder has not yet held the ball in the infield (see NCAA RULE 2)."

to me this says to allow play to continue on a pitched ball caught by the catcher as he is not in the "infield". as opposed to a balk on a throw to first where F3 catches the ball - that you would kill when he caught it.

do you have a citation to support your assertion? i just want to get this right in my head.
thanks.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ggk

bob jenkins stated
No. The NCAA rule is the same as OBR on this issue.

but what about ctblu40's post..........

"NCAA rules are similar, but not the same. I would not call time and enforce the balk in this situation in an NCAA game because there are 2 criteria that need to be met.
First, 9-3-PENALTY(1) is the same as OBR in that if all runners including the batter advance 1 base, the balk is ignored (which is not the case in the play above).
Second, 9-3-PENALTY(2) indicates that "the umpire shall call balk in the usual manner, but shall not call "time" until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and/or a fielder is in posession of the ball in the infield)." In your discription, a fielder has not yet held the ball in the infield (see NCAA RULE 2)."

to me this says to allow play to continue on a pitched ball caught by the catcher as he is not in the "infield". as opposed to a balk on a throw to first where F3 catches the ball - that you would kill when he caught it.

do you have a citation to support your assertion? i just want to get this right in my head.
thanks.

The rule he cited includes some preamble to the effect "if F1 throws wild..."

In the OP, F1 did not throw wild.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The rule he cited includes some preamble to the effect "if F1 throws wild..."

In the OP, F1 did not throw wild.

Just so everyone knows, I think I'm leaning towards Bob's thinking here.
The exact quote from the 2006 NCAA book is as follows.

9-3-PENALTY(2) If a balk is immediately followed by a wild throw by the pitcher to a base that permits runner(s) to advance to or beyond the base to which that runner is entitled, the balk shall be acknowledged. The umpire will call the balk in the usual manner, but shall not call "Time" until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and/or a fielder is in posession of the ball in the infield).

Another consideration I have made since my original post is that NCAA 9-3-PENALTY(1) says:
"If the balk is immediately followed by a pitch that permits the batter and each runner to advance a minimum of one base, the balk is ignored and the ball remains live."

Clearly, the NCAA rules are making a distinction between a throw to a base and a pitch. I stand corrected with regards to the proper ruling under NCAA rules... thanks BOB.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

ggk,


Under OBR rules, in your initial sitch (balk, F2 overthrows 2B in his attempt on the stealing R1, r1 ends up safe at 3B) the ball NEVER became dead as a result of the balk. Since the only runner advanced one base safely on the continuous action of the play immediately following the balk, the balk is disregarded - as if it never happened.

Sorry, Coach. Time is called and the balk enforced when the catcher catches the ball.

Edited to add: Oops...I didn't read page 2 before posting to your comment. I hadn't yet seen that several folks had already corrected you.

[PWL]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

8.05 Penalty The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.


Tim.

FYI. It's like a penalty flag in football. You just pick it up and stick it in you back pocket. There is nothing wrong with calling "TIME" the instant the catcher gloves the ball in this situation. Go back and read the post by bossman 72 on page 1. Perhaps the pitch was a check swing.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

FYI. It's like a penalty flag in football. You just pick it up and stick it in you back pocket. There is nothing wrong with calling "TIME" the instant the catcher gloves the ball in this situation. Go back and read the post by bossman 72 on page 1. Perhaps the pitch was a check swing.

If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call "Time" the moment the catcher catches the ball. Then enforce the balk. (Note exception in ball four situations covered in item (5) below.

(5)If the balk is followed by ball four delivered to the batter and is caught by the catcher, call "Time" and enforce the balk unless all runners advance one base because of ball four. In that situation, play proceeds without reference to the balk.

Notice the exception. You do not call time on ball four when runners are forced due to the batter becoming a runner. To do so would be playing the 10th man on defense should a runner attempt to advance beyond the base to which he was forced. Do you call time every time the catcher wants to throw the ball back to the pitcher? I'm not arguing with you. I'm merely pointing our you're wrong in your interpretation.



Tim.