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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 01, 2003, 11:25am
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Having been umpiring on a serious level for only the past year (lots of youth ball of course, and 1st yr FED), Im still learning my chops. Balks is the area Ive had the hardest time. Getting better, but I think Im still missing some. Heres one from yesterday, 15 year olds, tourney.

--R2. Left-handed pitcher. Left foot on rubber, right foot in front a foot or so, glove at his side, ball in pitching hand, just standing there. Getting ready to go into set position. Turns his head back to check R2. With only his head turned back to check R2, F1 makes a quick feint to 2nd , never turning his body, or stepping towards 2nd. I hesitated a moment and called a balk. My thought process was F1 can only fake a throw to 2nd or 3rd, but must step towards the base, which he didnt. No one came out on me, but defensive coach said I let "them" (offensive coaches) call it for me. Now they screamed balk when it happenned, so, yeah, maybe the combination of that, and the play looking a little odd, caused me to call it. Did I yak it??
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Old Mon Sep 01, 2003, 12:41pm
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Yak

Personally I think you blew it. He did not throw the ball so no step was needed. I am open to discussion on this though. My next game will be the perfect one.
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Old Mon Sep 01, 2003, 12:47pm
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8.05c note says....."A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base, but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps.

It says "does not require him to throw" (which the F1 in my example did not thorw). But it also says "step directly toward a base", which F1 didnt in my sitch.
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Old Mon Sep 01, 2003, 01:03pm
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I'm still sticking with no balk ... There was no throw. I hope others get into this one ..
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Old Mon Sep 01, 2003, 01:26pm
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While there is no direct statement in the sections of 8.05 that cover feints (b), (c), (d), (i)...we have this from the JEA:

(In reference to 8.05(b))
Customs and Usage: A pitcher may not feint a throw to 1st base, but he can feint a throw to other bases if he steps legally.



[Edited by GarthB on Sep 1st, 2003 at 08:29 PM]
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Old Mon Sep 01, 2003, 08:24pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by chuckfan1
--R2. Left-handed pitcher. Left foot on rubber, right foot in front a foot or so, glove at his side, ball in pitching hand, just standing there. Getting ready to go into set position. Turns his head back to check R2. With only his head turned back to check R2, F1 makes a quick feint to 2nd , never turning his body, or stepping towards 2nd.
Feinting to a base while in contact with the rubber without first stepping towards the base is a balk. You were correct in calling it.
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Old Mon Sep 01, 2003, 09:03pm
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GARTHB,

I think you are a black-letter-law man. Do you agree that a pitcher, in the stretch position, can not "make any motion naturally associated with his pitch..."

Or, would you say that the pitcher does not pitch from the stretch and therefore any movement from that position does not violate 8.05(a).

I have seen it both ways. The pitcher must be on the rubber(touching)to get a sign from F2, and that suggests that F1 can not turn his body from the stretch to get a look an the runner(s).

What say you?
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Old Mon Sep 01, 2003, 09:21pm
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From the 2002 MLB Umpire Manual:
    A pitcher must step directly toward a base before throwing or feinting to that base, but he is not required to throw (except to first base only) because he steps.

Despite what The BRD states about NCAA, under all major sets of rules any move made from the pitching rubber by the pitcher to a base must be preceded by a legal step. Even with a jump turn, the step must accompany the move and be made before the throw or feint.

This was a balk, and you correctly called it.
YOU CALLED THE BALK, not the defense.
There's nothing wrong in taking your time to assure that your call---although later than the defensive yells---is the accurate call. When the defense calls it, it means nothing. When YOU call it, it means something.

Don't allow the coach to take the cheap shot by yelling an accusation that you allowed the defense to call the balk. That is personally attacking you, and you need to let him know you consider it as such. Take control of the game by providing him the warning that those comments are considered personal and will no longer be tolerated. If he says it to you quietly in discussion instead of yelling it, be less harsh with your warning, but let him know YOU called the balk, and you took your time to get it right.
It's better to be slow and accurate versus fast and inaccurate..............


Just my opinion,

Freix

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Old Mon Sep 01, 2003, 09:24pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by wpiced
GARTHB,

I think you are a black-letter-law man. Do you agree that a pitcher, in the stretch position, can not "make any motion naturally associated with his pitch..."

Or, would you say that the pitcher does not pitch from the stretch and therefore any movement from that position does not violate 8.05(a).

I have seen it both ways. The pitcher must be on the rubber(touching)to get a sign from F2, and that suggests that F1 can not turn his body from the stretch to get a look an the runner(s).

What say you?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, hee hee hee, giggle, snort, stop, you're killing me. Black letter of the law? AHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I've gotta print this out and take to the next meeting. Oh, yeah. You've made my day.

Let me calm down here....man, that was good. First, snicker, giggle, let me ask you something. Dave Hensley and I gave the same answer to the question and you single me out. Was it my rugged good looks, Or pehaps my vast wealth from my holdings in KMart futures, Enron warrants and Canadian currency?

While I enjoy getting to the meat of the issue, debating intent and even parsing words at times at rules session or here on the boards, on the field, I still follow my mentors advice from 30 years ago, "Be in the right place at the right time and make the call that is appropriate to the game." Does that sound like a black letter of the law umpire to you?

Example: R1 stealing second. F2's throw beats him by four steps. The glove gets down as he begins his slide. He slides into the glove, but visible only to the umpire, his right hand goes behind the glove and "safely" touches the bag a micro-second before his left hand touches the glove. Your call? Mine? He's out.


Now then to your question. Could you write it a bit more clear? It is confusing:

"Or, would you say that the pitcher does not pitch from the stretch and therefore any movement from that position does not violate 8.05(a)."

Huh?

"The pitcher must be on the rubber(touching)to get a sign from F2, and that suggests that F1 can not turn his body from the stretch to get a look an the runner(s)."

Is this a statement or question? If it is a statement, I don't agree. I don't see that suggestion anywhere.

If it is a question, then the answer is 2Xsquared times the cosine of angle t.

[Edited by GarthB on Sep 1st, 2003 at 10:22 PM]
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Old Tue Sep 02, 2003, 11:13am
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ALRIGHTY THEN! YOU DON'T HAVE THE ANSWER. FAIR ENOUGH.

BUT, WHEN YOU TAKE YOUR COPY OF MY INQUIRY TO YOUR NEXT MEETING, BE SURE YOU LET THEM KNOW THAT IT WAS ME, MARTY, THAT ASKED THE QUESTION, AND THAT IT WAS YOU WHO COULDN'T OR WOULDN'T DIRECTLY RESPOND WITH A REASONABLE ANSWER.

BY THE WAY, IN YOUR SLIDE-AROUND-THE-GLOVE EXAMPLE, MY CALL WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SAME, "HE'S OUT!"

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Old Tue Sep 02, 2003, 11:45am
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Quote:
Originally posted by wpiced
ALRIGHTY THEN! YOU DON'T HAVE THE ANSWER. FAIR ENOUGH.

BUT, WHEN YOU TAKE YOUR COPY OF MY INQUIRY TO YOUR NEXT MEETING, BE SURE YOU LET THEM KNOW THAT IT WAS ME, MARTY, THAT ASKED THE QUESTION, AND THAT IT WAS YOU WHO COULDN'T OR WOULDN'T DIRECTLY RESPOND WITH A REASONABLE ANSWER.

BY THE WAY, IN YOUR SLIDE-AROUND-THE-GLOVE EXAMPLE, MY CALL WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SAME, "HE'S OUT!"

Whoa. What got your panties in a knot? I answered the only question in your post that I could decipher. If you'd care to take the time to post any other question that you think is there in the form of a question and using somewhat proper construction, I'll answer it. I don't shy from questions.

And try to learn two things:

1. Don't make assumptions about those you don't know.

2. Find where your caps lock key is and turn it off.


As a note to others. I am quite sincere in my inability to decipher what good old Marty is asking. If anyone else thinks they can restate his question understandably, I'd be happy to answer it. How about you Roger? You have the skill and temperment of one who has to decipher and rule on evidence. Can you help me out here?

[Edited by GarthB on Sep 2nd, 2003 at 12:14 PM]
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Old Tue Sep 02, 2003, 01:01pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by GarthB
As a note to others. I am quite sincere in my inability to decipher what good old Marty is asking. If anyone else thinks they can restate his question understandably, I'd be happy to answer it. How about you Roger? You have the skill and temperment of one who has to decipher and rule on evidence. Can you help me out here?

[Edited by GarthB on Sep 2nd, 2003 at 12:14 PM]
I think he was asking: "Since it's a balk to 'make a motion associated with the pitch,' do you call a balk when the pitcher turns his shoulders to look at the runner (before coming set)?"

My reply: A pitcher turns his shoulders to pitch, yes, but that doesn't mean every turn of the shoulders is a "motion associated with the pitch."

I'm not sure how the question fits with the questin that started this thread (Q: Must a feint include a step? -- A: Yes, in all codes, either explicitly or by interpretation)

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Old Tue Sep 02, 2003, 04:09pm
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Bob's interpretation:

I think he was asking: "Since it's a balk to 'make a motion associated with the pitch,' do you call a balk when the pitcher turns his shoulders to look at the runner (before coming set)?"

Thanks, Bob.

Marty if that is your question, I would answer: "No, in OBR. Yes in FED."
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 02, 2003, 04:40pm
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Perhaps...

Marty is trying to differentiate between the stretch and the set portions of this delivery.

The original post sounded like the pitcher was standing tall

" Left foot on rubber, right foot in front a foot or so,... Getting ready to go into set position."

Perhaps not in the stretch yet??? So maybe his question was do you allow the pitcher to move his shoulders at this stage of the delivery - something that would look like the beginning of a delivery? This is really two seperate questions - shoulder movement, and delivery movement.

OBR: Yes, shoulder move is allowed until the pitcher comes to his stopped, set position.

FED: No, shoulder movement is not allowed while in contact with the rubber.

For both: any movement the resembles the pitcher's habitual delivery, must result in a legal pitch... any other result would likely be a balk.

I do like the moniker of the Black Letter of the Law... Sherriff Benham (spelling?). I don't think it was meant to be offensive and I don't think you took it that way. But not everybody may be aware that being considered a "Rulebook Official" is not necessarily a compliment.

Which black letter would you choose? I can see your spurs and cowboy swagger now. That's a nice black hat Sherriff.
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Old Tue Sep 02, 2003, 04:54pm
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Re: Perhaps...

Quote:
Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
OBR: Yes, shoulder move is allowed until the pitcher comes to his stopped, set position.

To be clear, OBR doesn't include the phrase "shoulder move" (or anything similar). It's the umpire's judgment as to whether any such movement is the atart of a pitch, or a feint to a base, or nothing.

In practice, movement that is most-oftened judged to be "nothing" before the set will be most-oftened judged to be "something" after the set.
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