Delayed Dead Ball or Not?

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I think it is more accurate to deal with as Evans teaches. Will the ball ALWAYS become dead on catcher's interferenece? Or will it either be dead or live depending on circumstances? If it is not assuredly to become dead, that is, it may remain live, then why would you want to always call it delayed dead?

I think it's fair to answer yes, the ball always becomes dead on catcher's interference - at the end of the play. At the end of the play, the proper enforcement is applied. The concept of "delayed dead" is simply there, and simply taught, to teach umpires to NOT immediately kill the ball when you have "delayed dead" infractions such as umpire interference, catcher interference, batter interference, balks, coach assistance interference, and type B obstruction.

This comment from Evans in describing umpire interference is pretty telling, if you ask me:

The rule book mistakenly states in both 2.00 Interference and in the prefix of 5.09(b) that the ball is dead. The ball is not dead until the result of the play is known (a delayed dead ball). At that time, the proper enforcement of
the rule should follow.

This statement by Evans seems to answer your question as I have, with a "yes."

I just fail to see the purpose or any educational benefit of stressing that "delayed dead ball" is not in the OBR, when the enforcement principle of delayed dead ball most assuredly is.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

There is in Little League, and they use the FED signal too. But in any other league with an OBR rule base, there is no such animal.

No Little League publication that I'm aware of that addresses umpiring mechanics, including the Rules Instruction Manual, the Umpire Clinic Manual, or The Umpire in Little League booklet, teaches the FED delayed-dead signal. Little League rules are derived from OBR, verbatim for the most part, and their training manuals are parallel with professional training with respect to signaling and enforcing delayed dead situations (e.g., pointing and saying "That's obstruction" and then letting the play continue for type B obstruction).

If you're receiving contrary information at the local league or district level, that wouldn't be the first time that's happened, but your local instructors are "off the reservation" with respect to any official Little League instruction.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

I think it's fair to answer yes, the ball always becomes dead on catcher's interference - at the end of the play. At the end of the play, the proper enforcement is applied. The concept of "delayed dead" is simply there, and simply taught, to teach umpires to NOT immediately kill the ball when you have "delayed dead" infractions such as umpire interference, catcher interference, batter interference, balks, coach assistance interference, and type B obstruction.

This comment from Evans in describing umpire interference is pretty telling, if you ask me:

The rule book mistakenly states in both 2.00 Interference and in the prefix of 5.09(b) that the ball is dead. The ball is not dead until the result of the play is known (a delayed dead ball). At that time, the proper enforcement of
the rule should follow.

This statement by Evans seems to answer your question as I have, with a "yes."

I just fail to see the purpose or any educational benefit of stressing that "delayed dead ball" is not in the OBR, when the enforcement principle of delayed dead ball most assuredly is.

From talking with Jim about this issue, I believe he uses. and places parethentically, the term (delayed dead ball) as recognition that some are familiar with with the term. None-the-less, he does stress that a delayed dead-ball does not exist under "Major League Rules". (I have never heard him use the term "OBR")

It may appear to be semantics to some, but I see a distinct difference. Why not attend one of the classics this year and get this firsthand?

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

No Little League publication that I'm aware of that addresses umpiring mechanics, including the Rules Instruction Manual, the Umpire Clinic Manual, or The Umpire in Little League booklet, teaches the FED delayed-dead signal. Little League rules are derived from OBR, verbatim for the most part, and their training manuals are parallel with professional training with respect to signaling and enforcing delayed dead situations (e.g., pointing and saying "That's obstruction" and then letting the play continue for type B obstruction).

If you're receiving contrary information at the local league or district level, that wouldn't be the first time that's happened, but your local instructors are "off the reservation" with respect to any official Little League instruction.

Dave:

Personally it doesn't matter to me what mechanic is used to signal a delayed dead ball in a Little League game, or if any is used at all. However, the Central Region school was teaching the FED dead ball mechanic when I attended in the late 90's. To my knowledege this is still an accepted mechanic.


Tim.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by GarthB

From talking with Jim about this issue, I believe he uses. and places parethentically, the term (delayed dead ball) as recognition that some are familiar with with the term. None-the-less, he does stress that a delayed dead-ball does not exist under "Major League Rules". (I have never heard him use the term "OBR")

It may appear to be semantics to some, but I see a distinct difference. Why not attend one of the classics this year and get this firsthand?

A Desert Classic is probably not in the cards anytime soon, but I do hope to make any weekend clinic he puts on within reasonable travel distance next time it's available. I missed a Texas opportunity a few months ago and really regret not trying harder to attend.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Dave:

Personally it doesn't matter to me what mechanic is used to signal a delayed dead ball in a Little League game, or if any is used at all. However, the Central Region school was teaching the FED dead ball mechanic when I attended in the late 90's. To my knowledege this is still an accepted mechanic.


Tim.

Wow, the late 90's - that's so last century, dude.

Let's ask the real LL experts - the Western Region gurus - on that mail list. I'll bet a type b obstruction during a rundown that they don't teach the FED delayed dead mechanic.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

A Desert Classic is probably not in the cards anytime soon, but I do hope to make any weekend clinic he puts on within reasonable travel distance next time it's available. I missed a Texas opportunity a few months ago and really regret not trying harder to attend.

The problem with the week-end clinics is that there is just not enough time for a decent number of reps in any of the drills. I suppose it's better than nothing, but I think you'd be disappointed.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Wow, the late 90's - that's so last century, dude.

Let's ask the real LL experts - the Western Region gurus - on that mail list. I'll bet a type b obstruction during a rundown that they don't teach the FED delayed dead mechanic.

2005 Little League Baseball Umpire School - Rules Instruction Manual

7.06(b) If no play is being made on the obstructed runner, the play shall proceed until no further action is possible. The umpire shall then call "Time" and impose such penalties, if any, as in that umpire's judgment will nullify the act of obstruction. NOTE (1): When the ball is not dead on obstruction and an obstructed runner advances beyond the base which, in the umpire’s judgment, the runner would have been awarded because of being obstructed, the runner does so at his/her own risk and may be tagged out. This is a judgment call. NOTE (2): If the defensive player blocks the base (plate) or base line clearly without possession of the ball, obstruction shall be called. The runner is safe and a delayed dead ball shall be called.

“The Right Call” Casebook -- Play 7-5: Runner on first takes off with the crack of the bat. Seeing no trouble making third, he/she rounds second when he/she collides with the shortstop who is wandering around aimlessly. Runner continues to third and the ball beats him/her there. What is the call? Ruling: When the runner ran into the wandering shortstop signal and verbalize “obstruction”, but allow the play to continue. On the play at third, raise both hands above your head and call “time”. Explain obstruction on the shortstop, runner is “awarded” third base.

2.00 - OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball, impedes the progress of any runner. A fake tag is considered obstruction. NOTE: Obstruction shall be called on a defensive player who blocks off a base, base line or home plate from a base runner while not in possession of the ball.

“The Right Call” Casebook -- Obstruction is the act of: (a) a defensive player or team member which hinders or prevents a batter from striking or hitting a pitched ball; (b) a fielder, while: (1) not in possession of the ball; (2) not in the act of fielding a batted ball, impedes the progress of a base runner or batter-runner who is legally running bases. Play 2-10: Batter hits a line drive into right center. Sensing a double, he/she immediately sprints toward 2nd. As he/she rounds first the 1st baseman steps into the base path and collides with the batter-runner. The batter-runner gets himself together and continues to 2nd where he/she is tagged out by a perfect throw from the center fielder. Ruling: Obstruction, delayed dead ball, on the first baseman. Call time and award batter-runner 2nd base.

INSTRUCTOR COMMENTS:

It is quite simple now for the umpires to rule on obstruction…if the defense does not have the ball and impedes the progress of any runner it shall be called obstruction. It makes no difference if the defense is fielding a thrown ball or waiting for the ball, if the defensive player does not have the ball in his/her possession it is obstruction if they impede the progress of any runner.
“Train wrecks are still going to happen and are not to be considered as obstruction. Example: Throw from the shortstop to the 1st baseman in an attempt to get a batter-runner out pulls the 1st baseman down the line toward home plate and the 1st baseman and the batter-runner collide. This is a train wreck because the defensive player is doing what he/she should be doing (fielding the ball) and the batter-runner is doing what he/she should be doing (running the bases).

Most actions related to obstruction concern who has the right-of-way. The defense has the right to the baseline on a batted ball or when he/she already has the ball in his/her possession. The offense has the right to the baseline in all other occasions, including on a thrown ball.

A “fake tag” is a dangerous play and must not be allowed to continue. In addition to the calling of obstruction, the player and team should be warned. Further instances could result in ejection.

There is a difference between a “decoy” and a “fake tag.” A decoy results in confusing the base runner who is not watching his/her base coaches. A fake tag results in the player sliding when he/she doesn’t have to slide.
_____________________________________________

No delayed dead ball signal specified.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

2005 Little League Baseball Umpire School - Rules Instruction Manual
_____________________________________________

No delayed dead ball signal specified.

Right, no delayed dead ball signal specified. Specifically, no instruction to hold your fist out at your side and run around like that while the play continues, which is the FED mechanic. That's what I'm saying, that Little League does NOT teach the FED mechanic. You're the one who said they DID.

In the LL Umpire Clinic Manual, they have several pages of "basic signals." FED-style delayed dead ball is NOT among them.

The RIM instruction is consistent with standard pro mechanics - point at the infraction, verbalize it ("That's obstruction" or "Interference" or "That's a balk"), and then let play continue. Just like Evans instructs in his book.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Right, no delayed dead ball signal specified. Specifically, no instruction to hold your fist out at your side and run around like that while the play continues, which is the FED mechanic. That's what I'm saying, that Little League does NOT teach the FED mechanic. You're the one who said they DID.

I think you have me confused with someone else. I have never used the FED mechanic on an OBR or LL game in my life. Perhaps you are thinking of someone else? (Maybe BigUmp56 with whom I have been arguing this for some time now?)

Awaiting retraction.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Oh, and I didn't need Evans' book to tell me this, I learned my mechanics long before Jim ever dreamed of having an umpire school or writing any books.

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

A Desert Classic is probably not in the cards anytime soon, but I do hope to make any weekend clinic he puts on within reasonable travel distance next time it's available. I missed a Texas opportunity a few months ago and really regret not trying harder to attend.

Dave & all,

Desert Classic is back in 2006! http://www.umpireacademy.com/desert_classic.php

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I think you have me confused with someone else. I have never used the FED mechanic on an OBR or LL game in my life. Perhaps you are thinking of someone else? (Maybe BigUmp56 with whom I have been arguing this for some time now?)

Awaiting retraction.

In post 7 of this thread, you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
"There is no such thing as a delayed deadball under Major League Rules. It is live, or it is dead. It might become dead in the future, it might not. But there is no delayed deadball. That's a high school thing."

Jim Evans, November 2004

I must save this post for BigUmp56, with whom I have had a running fued over this issue for some time now. I have long held that there is no delayed dead ball in OBR. There is in Little League, and they use the FED signal too. But in any other league with an OBR rule base, there is no such animal. In OBR, you point at the play and say "that's Obstruction," and you don't stick your left arm out to the side.

Tim, I'm not often right, but in this I am. I used the example in my original post to see if I could draw out some opinion to match my own, and I did. Apparently Reverend Jimmy agrees.

Emphasis added to pinpoint where you said Little League uses the FED delayed dead ball mechanic (signal).

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Oh, and I didn't need Evans' book to tell me this, I learned my mechanics long before Jim ever dreamed of having an umpire school or writing any books.

Really? Jim began his research for his book on the rules almost as soon as he began umpiring. He would spend his off days on the road at libraries researching and taking copious notes. Most people have no clue as to how the JEA was born, or how thorough it was researched and prepared.

Most people also don't have a clue as to Jim's imput into the formalization of pro-mechanics and his input into what eventually became PBUC's publication known as the "Red BooK".

Your recent attitdue towards Jim Evans confuses me. I've seen posts from you on various sites in which you sarcatiscally lyrefer to him as "Oz", or "Reverend Evans" among other terms.

Whatever you may think of the man personally, baseball, and the umpiring community specifically, are greatly in his debt.

Jim is regarded by active ML umpires and ML Baseball in general as the leading expert in baseball rules, their origins, traditions and modern interpretation and usage. Even the changes made this year, seven years after his retirement, were among the those proposed by Jim years ago.

I realize you "could have been a ML umpire", as you were once so fond of telling us, but I am amazed that one who has never met the man can voice the contempt I read in your posts.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Really? Jim began his research for his book on the rules almost as soon as he began umpiring. He would spend his off days on the road at libraries researching and taking copious notes. Most people have no clue as to how the JEA was born, or how thorough it was researched and prepared.

Most people also don't have a clue as to Jim's imput into the formalization of pro-mechanics and his input into what eventually became PBUC's publication known as the "Red BooK".

Your recent attitdue towards Jim Evans confuses me. I've seen posts from you on various sites in which you sarcatiscally lyrefer to him as "Oz", or "Reverend Evans" among other terms.

Whatever you may think of the man personally, baseball, and the umpiring community specifically, are greatly in his debt.

Jim is regarded by active ML umpires and ML Baseball in general as the leading expert in baseball rules, their origins, traditions and modern interpretation and usage. Even the changes made this year, seven years after his retirement, were among the those proposed by Jim years ago.

I realize you "could have been a ML umpire", as you were once so fond of telling us, but I am amazed that one who has never met the man can voice the contempt I read in your posts.

I refer to Evans as "Reverend Jimmy" simply because all you MLB umpires' jock sniffers worship him like a God. I have nothing against him at all. In fact, I quote his interpretations often. Probably never met the man because I live in a NL town, and he was an AL umpire. I have met and spoken with many NL umpires, but alas, no AL umpires. Jim Evans was not one of my favorite AL umpires either, but his dedication to the rules, their history and application, is unquestionable.

BTW, where can I obtain a Jim Evans book on the rules? I have searched high and low, and cannot locate a copy.

Garth, is there some reason you continue to reference my past remarks? That kind of thing would get a coach run in a baseball game, but since I said it, you think it's fair game? I wasn't "so fond" of saying I could have been a pro umpire. I said it a grand total of one time, to which you proceeded to laugh me off the board. We all could have been ML umpires if the circumstances had been different, don't you think? I think most good umpires at one time or other have felt the same way. I just made the mistake of voicing my thoughts. I never thought I could be a soldier, but after boot camp and AIT, I became a good one. A little training and experience go a long way in life, and baseball is no different.